Authenticity Sells: Build a Law Firm Brand People Actually Remember (w/ Gary Sarner)

Welcome to episode 43 of The Earley Show podcast, hosted by personal injury attorney Christopher Earley! For this conversation, Chris is joined by Gary Sarner, Founder of ROI360+.

Check out the episode below. You can also enjoy it on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Gary and Chris discuss the importance of authenticity in marketing, the role of community involvement for new lawyers, long-term branding strategies, and the evolving landscape of legal marketing with AI and other technologies. Gary also emphasizes the significance of compassion, great legal work, and maintaining personal connections in the legal industry.

About our guest: Gary Sarner, an expert in legal marketing, transitioned from the vibrant radio industry to redefine media buying strategies for law firms across the country. With over 37 years of experience, he founded ROI360+ in 2021. His agency isn't just about delivering results; it's about crafting media buying strategies that dominate the airwaves.

With a genuine passion for his work, Gary finds fulfillment not only in professional success but also in family life—he has four children, two of whom are currently studying law. His mission is simple: to help clients flourish. Gary's approach blends innovation with dedication, offering a recipe for success that propels law firms forward in today's ever-changing landscape.

Learn more about ROI360+ here!

About The Earley Show:

For nearly 20 years, Christopher Earley has successfully led a personal injury law firm in Boston. On the Earley Show, a new podcast launched in the summer of 2023, Christopher and other standout attorneys will be sharing their secrets to success, and discussing the law office management habits that have allowed their practice to thrive. If you’re looking to make better use of your time, increase daily productivity or even just spend less time answering emails, you’ll definitely want to tune in to The Earley Show.

Learn more about the Earley Law Group here!

Check out the previous episode of The Earley Show here!

The Earley Show is a part of the Answering Legal podcast network. Interested in learning more about Answering Legal? Click here to learn more about 400 minute free trial!

This podcast is produced and edited by Joe Galotti. You can reach Joe via email at [email protected].

Episode Transcript:

Christopher Earley: Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Earley Show, sponsored by our friends over at Answering Legal. I’m your host, Chris Earley. I’m an injury lawyer in Massachusetts, and as always, on each and every podcast episode of The Earley Show, we bring you the best and brightest in the legal industry.

And I’m really excited today because we have Gary Sarner. He’s not a lawyer — and frankly, I learn more from non-lawyers than I do from lawyers — so I’m really excited to geek out with Gary.

Gary’s a guy who’s at every conference, has the best sartorial choices of anyone in those conference halls, with his great, flamboyant shirts — which I love. They’re so smart to wear. So we’re going to learn a lot from Gary. Excited to have you on today, man. How are you? Welcome.

Gary Sarner: Well first, it’s great to see you, Chris. I left you just last week in Chicago, and it’s an honor to be on with you. You’re someone I’ve followed since I opened my radio advocacy about four and a half years ago, and our friendship means a lot to me.

What I’ve learned from you — your authenticity on video, your presence on LinkedIn, and you just being a great person and a great dad — it all means a lot. It’s a two-way street. So I appreciate your time, and I’m excited that we’re sitting down today.

Christopher: I know people predominantly know you as “the radio guy,” but there’s so much more to you as a person. Could you go back in time a bit and just introduce us to your background — growing up, brothers and sisters, how you were influenced by your parents, and how that led to where you are now?

Gary: Sure. I was born in New York but raised in Atlanta — which was a huge culture shock in the ’70s. My father, like me, was a workaholic. He was never around, always working. He built a very large consumer electronics business, advertising in newspapers and on the radio — which is where I fell in love with radio.

I have a sister who’s a musician for children all over South Florida. And I’m very blessed — I have four amazing kids, a couple of ex-wives, and my partner today, Elena. She’s magical. Without her, I don’t think I ever could’ve built the business that I’m so grateful to have.

Christopher: What about your mom — what did she do?

Gary: My mom’s trade was interior decorating, but she was more of a stay-at-home mom. She took us to all our events, did everything because my dad always worked. He was never home on weekends — he was in retail.

When he sold his business and told me it was time to get a job, I called one of his dearest friends who ran a radio station. I said, “Mark, what exactly do you do that you don’t work weekends?” — because I used to play basketball at his house on weekends.

He asked me what my favorite radio station was. I told him, and I was fortunate enough to get a sales position there back in 1987, when I was just 20 years old.

Christopher: So you started to cut your teeth in radio.

Gary: My entire career has been in radio and sports.

Christopher: That’s a long run! Well, obviously you’re only 30, so that’s just 10 years, right?

Gary: Ha! I think I’m old enough to be your dad.

Christopher: I’m not far behind you, trust me. So, let me ask — your dad, did you guys have a relationship? Or was it difficult since he was never there?

Gary: We did have a relationship. It’s a crazy, sad story, though. My father got the ninth pacemaker ever put into a human body — in 1971. It was done by the government at NYU Hospital.

He went through so many heart surgeries, beat cancer twice… but COVID took him.

Christopher: Oh no. I’m so sorry, man.

Gary: Yeah — August of ’21, during the second wave. We’re coming up on four years now. It was awful, because no one was allowed in hospitals. He spent 28 days in a hospital bed. My son’s friend from college was working there and helped us by taking pictures — because my dad couldn’t really use FaceTime. It was tough. Really tough.

Christopher: That’s so hard, man. I’m sorry. So, would you consider yourself a workaholic, like your dad?

Gary: I always have been. It gets passed down. I was raised to be a provider — that’s your role.

I’ve been married twice. I have my oldest with my first wife, and my three youngest with my ex. She asked me to make her a promise — to keep our kids in Jewish day school no matter what. I agreed, and I believed in it.

But was it a struggle as a radio salesman? Hell yes. Private school isn’t cheap.

Christopher: And you were paid on commission, right?

Gary: Kind of. Commission-based, yeah. I did very well, but it’s different when you work for someone else versus working for yourself.

Christopher: Right — it’s the difference between signing checks and having someone sign your check. When it’s your business, you eat what you kill. That’s a massive motivator.

Gary: Exactly. You can do well in sales, but you’re still limited — by inventory, by the number of salespeople — it’s just a different world. I’m so grateful I get to do what I love now at ROI 360 Plus. I don’t have to answer to anybody. I get to work with people I love — my law firm partners and my friends at radio stations across America.

Today we’re in 38 markets across the country — from Anchorage, Alaska, to New York, down to Miami, across to Phoenix, and everywhere in between.

Christopher: Let me ask you this. If you could simplify it for me — are you kind of a liaison today between the consumer and the radio station?

Gary: They’re not going to like what I’m about to say — but when an advertiser or potential advertiser calls a radio, TV, or billboard company, that company is going to sell you the inventory they need to move.

When somebody works with me, or one of the other great agencies out there that focus on the legal field, we know what to purchase to drive traffic to your website.

I’d love to say “to make your phone ring,” but nobody remembers phone numbers anymore.

Christopher: So, you hold people’s hands through that process, right? Are you just in the legal space now, or do you help others too?

Gary: We do work with one car dealer — he’s someone I worked with years ago in Florida who moved to another market. Dear friend, so I help him.

But our business is a legal marketing agency.

And it’s funny — a couple of friends of ours, Chris Dreyer and Joe Fried, really helped me niche down and change the name of the agency.

I had started as ROI360 Plus. I was sitting with Joe — he’s been a friend of mine since high school.

Christopher: Really? Joe was actually on my podcast! I just saw him last week in Chicago.

Gary: Yeah, that’s right. We’ve known each other since we were 13 years old. I asked him once how he became the trucking expert. I won’t tell Joe’s full story, but he said, “Gary, look around this conference. The people like you are in TV, billboards, and digital — but nobody knows radio like you do. You’re an expert in radio. Use it.”

And the next day, I changed the name from ROI360 Plus to ROI360 Plus: The Radio Experts.

Christopher: I love that. Joe was on the podcast, and there was so much content we cut it into two parts. And I’m super grateful to Chris Dreyer too — he’s hosting PILMMA Con in a couple months. You and I will both be there, and I’ll be speaking.

So, I appreciate Chris for that opportunity, and Joe — I’m working on a big case with him right now. He’s a really good B2B marketer; that’s what he’s cut his teeth doing, marketing to other lawyers.

People should definitely learn from Joe and what he’s doing.

Anyway, we digress — it’s such a small world.

By the way, since we’re on a Joe kick — he’s one of the best lawyers in the United States, no question.

Gary: He’s an even better human being than he is a lawyer.

Christopher: Yeah, I don’t doubt that. I had lunch with him in Miami — you’ve known him decades longer than me, but I’m really grateful to know him now and call him a friend.

The world gets smaller and smaller as I get older.

So, he looked around that conference and pointed it out to you — and that’s such a good lesson for the listeners. You didn’t just think about it, you executed.

You took action and said, “Okay, ROI360 Plus, that’s what I’m doing.”

That’s hard! Even with decades of experience, when it becomes your company, you’ve got to get business.

I see you at all these conferences — you’ve always got this warm, approachable energy.

You’ve got high social intelligence.

As a non-lawyer, what’s your biggest challenge in working with lawyers?

Like, what don’t lawyers get that you wish you could just shake them and say, “Please understand this”? What could lawyers do better when it comes to marketing or advertising themselves?

Gary: That’s a great question. The thing is, the conversations are different with every lawyer, every firm, every operator.

Some firms have COOs, some have marketing directors — each one’s unique.

I find that people who are open to listening instead of always talking tend to do better at what they do.

But let me flip this back to you based on what we were just talking about.

You had a trucking case — a big one. You run a very successful law firm. You’ve grinded and grinded to get here.

And yet, you were willing to say, “I need help.”

Christopher: Totally.

Gary: And that help wasn’t for you — it was for your client.

So the first thing I always tell anyone I talk to is: my “why” isn’t the law firm. My “why” is your potential client.

Now, my partner base — meaning the law firms I work with — looks very different today than it did four and a half years ago.

Probably similar to your client base — I’m sure there are cases today you wouldn’t take that you would’ve taken on day one.

Christopher: That’s right.

Gary: Same here. There are law firms I probably wouldn’t partner with today, but I’d still help them.

Here’s a great example — I won’t name who — but someone heard me on a podcast, reached out to me on Instagram, and said, “I’d love to chat.”

We spent an hour on Zoom, and at the end, I said, “There’s going to come a point in your career where we can partner together. But today, you need a coach.”

I told him to go see Chad Dudley to help him with his practice.

And guess what? They’ve been working together for over two years now.

He’s growing like wildfire.

And eventually, we’ll work together — when it’s right for him.

Christopher: That’s amazing.

Gary: A lot of lawyers don’t understand that.

Let’s say you settle a case for $10 million. Your fee on that is $4 million.

That’s a big fee. You can do a lot with that.

But what I see all over the country is young lawyers who hit that big one, then start marketing on their own.

They buy a little radio, a little TV, a few billboards… and then it’s not working — because there was no strategy.

Christopher: Right.

Gary: I call them “ankle biters.”

In every market we’re in, we see competition come and go. They come on strong, then disappear.

You know who the most interesting person in personal injury is? John Morgan.

Christopher: How come?

Gary: Because if you went up to John Morgan and said, “Man, how’d you do this?” He’d hand you his playbook and say, “Here you go, Chris. Duplicate it.”

And like I tell every lawyer I talk to — if you’re getting into marketing your firm and you want to be like the firms that have been doing it for 20, 30, 40 years — you know what they did?

They stepped on the gas and never took their foot off.

But it’s hard to project 20 years from now — especially in a business like yours.

You’re in one of the only industries where you can invest, let’s say, $100,000 a month in marketing… and not get paid back for, on average, 14 months.

Christopher: Can we just go back to John Morgan for a second? As my listeners know, he was our first guest on this podcast. I’ve broken bread with him. He’s been very generous to me. Why he’s successful is because he’s a giver. There are a million other reasons, but I think it comes down to giving. And I, in my incredibly small way, try to give. Because I’m convinced that my life gets better when I give. You’re a giver. You didn’t take that guy’s money, that lawyer. You said, “No, no, no. You need to go to that person first.” And what’s going to happen? He’s going to come back to you at some point. Maybe tomorrow or two and a half years from now, but he’s going to be writing you checks. You didn’t chase money from him. You chased purpose and helping him. It’s going to be unavoidable for you and him not to work together. But see, it’s easy to dream, and like you said, Joe Fried has ideas—but if you don’t execute, you get nowhere. The executors are the ones who are successful. That’s why I share my stuff on LinkedIn. I share my stuff on stage with everyone because I’ve learned from the John Morgans—you have to share your stuff. You and I talked for an hour once. You didn’t make a dollar from that. I’ve never paid you anything, and you talked to me about radio and you weren’t looking for anything. People who give get further ahead than cheap people who don’t give. I’m convinced of it. Sorry, I just had to get that out there.

Gary: Doesn’t that happen as we get some wisdom with age?

Christopher: Totally.

Gary: And we learn from every mistake we make.

Christopher: Yes.

Gary: You get better, man. You get better. And there are people who are afraid to make mistakes. I’m going to challenge you—don’t be afraid.

Christopher: No.

Gary: Go for it.

Christopher: Absolutely not.

Gary: Most people fail far more than they succeed.

Christopher: Yes.

Gary: But it only takes one time to hit the big one.

Christopher: I like it. I love that. I love that. You know, I bet you’re like part psychologist because you have these clients investing massive amounts of money. It’s like, “Gary, I’m two weeks in, I haven’t gotten a case. My seven-figure case hasn’t come in yet.” So I imagine there’s some therapy on your part.

Gary: Day two, not two weeks—day two.

Christopher: (laughs)

Gary: You just hit something I talk about all the time. Marketing doesn’t happen in days, weeks, or even months. It takes forever. It takes years to build a brand. I tell people the moment you write a check for six figures for something that’s not coming back to you immediately—that’s when it becomes real.

Christopher: Oh yeah, really real.

Gary: In conversation, it hasn’t happened yet. But as soon as that check is written—or a lot of guys pay with their Amex to get the points—then the bill comes 30 days later, and suddenly they feel it. Everyone wants an ROI. And this is probably the hardest part of what we do in today’s world. You can market on radio, TV, billboards, buses—everywhere—but the clients that come to the law firm, the last touch is always Google. For now, right? ChatGPT is becoming important too. But attribution for a law firm is hard to figure out.

Christopher: For sure.

Gary: An intake person’s job is not to find out where the client came from. Their job is to be compassionate. Do you know what the hardest business in the United States is to call?

Christopher: A lawyer.

Gary: Exactly. Because what’s the perception of a lawyer? “They’re going to screw me over. I’m intimidated. I don’t feel comfortable. And they’re expensive.” You guys use this word contingency. I’d guess that half your clients couldn’t even spell contingency.

Christopher: (laughs) I know I can’t.

Gary: It’s true! And it matters because you have to think about how clients feel.

Christopher: Yeah, no, that’s valid.

Gary: Your business is changing drastically.

Christopher: What do you see out there right now?

Gary: Well, we’ve got AI, which is playing a huge part. We’re seeing people lose jobs to AI. Virtual assistants outside the United States are replacing staff because of cost savings. Operating a business isn’t easy. Look—you started early.

Christopher: No pun intended.

Gary: (laughs) Call Earley before it’s too late.

Christopher: Thank you, baby.

Gary: But seriously, for somebody who worked for someone else for 37 years, to open up a business and suddenly be responsible for everything—it’s a shock. Lawyers come out of law school trained to be attorneys (not well, but trained), yet they have no business acumen.

Christopher: Not in one try, yeah.

Gary: Nobody here knows this, but you do—my son sitting next to me just graduated from UF Law.

Christopher: Fantastic.

Gary: But he got his undergraduate degree in business.

Christopher: That’s smart, man.

Gary: He was very intentional about that. He’s going to work for a fabulous law firm, but my hope is one day he’ll have his own practice with his sister. Hopefully they don’t call it “Sarner & Sarner,” because I think we’re going to see those old-school name-based firms go away.

Christopher: Why do you think that? And congrats to your kids, by the way. You must be so proud. That’s success, man.

Gary: I am. I’m very proud of all of them. My oldest daughter lives in New York. She works for a company called Inside Global—been there 10 years since college. My youngest might be in your city next year.

Christopher: Oh, nice! Love it.

Gary: She just applied to Harvard Dental School.

Christopher: Holy smokes, you’re not messing around.

Gary: No, they didn’t mess around—I did.

Christopher: (laughs) Well, good job, Dad. Legit.

Gary: Thank you.

Christopher: Good job.

Gary: But I think we’re going to see more of these business models with consolidation happening in the legal space. Brand names are going to dominate. Look at TopDog Law. Look at what James did—crazy commercials, wild videos, very targeted audience. He’s built an absolutely amazing business.

Christopher: Yeah, he’s crushing it.

Gary: I was fortunate to be with him from the ground floor up for two years.

Christopher: Yeah, I knew that. Let me ask you this: why is he killing it? What’s different about him? Why isn’t everyone doing that?

Gary: So back to what we were talking about before—and I’ll tell you the short version. I met James on Instagram. I reached out. He finally responded, we had a conversation, then he ghosted me for three weeks. Then one day, the phone rings—“James Helm.” I said, “Hey, wow, you’re alive.” He said, “Your clients are stupid.”

Christopher: (laughs)

Gary: I said, “Tell me why.” He goes, “The media you buy is expensive.” I told him, “James, I could settle your $5 million case for $500,000.” He said, “No.” I said, “That’s why you should let me buy your media. I understand it. I don’t know how to make a $5 million case, but I know how to make your phone ring.” He gave me the opportunity. We started in Philadelphia and then grew to 29 markets across the country—intentional, great messaging. Some people are offended by his ads, but the point of advertising is to get someone to reach out to you.

Christopher: Attention.

Gary: Exactly. A lot of people overlook something I’ve learned over four and a half years working with so many firms: great legal work still matters. Acquiring the client is one thing, but if you don’t do great legal work, your fees will come down, and down, and down.

Christopher: That’s right.

Gary: So looking in the mirror as a law firm is hard sometimes. Everybody wants to have $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 average fees. Not everyone’s capable of that.

Christopher: For sure.

Christopher: Let me ask you this. So you go to all these conferences—I see you at a lot of them. If I’m at a conference, you’re there, talking to people, being positive, good energy, welcoming. I told you in Chicago, when I walked into that venue and you said, “Welcome to Chicago,” it made me feel good. I’d just gotten off the plane from Boston, never been there before, and it was like, “Thanks, man.” So I appreciate that. And I want to share that with the audience—marketing is about authenticity. Because frankly, I feel like lawyers are so boring. It’s like they think they can’t be themselves. I gave you my book—you’ve seen how out there I am. Authenticity is natural to me and comfortable for me. Do you have trouble with your clients embracing authentic marketing? Because the consumer—the hero of the story—isn’t the lawyer, it’s the end user. Do you have trouble getting lawyers to embrace that kind of authenticity in their marketing?

Gary: We all have a different approach on my side of the business. I’ve written about 1,500 of the worst radio commercials that actually work that you’ve ever heard. But in your space, I tell everybody: you need to be intentional and authentic to your brand. You can’t be somebody else’s brand. Because inevitably, we’ve all seen or heard tons of billboards, radio spots, TV spots where people say, “I want to be like that one.” Well, you’re not them. You can’t be that. You can take ideas from others, sure, but at the end of the day, I like to get a creative director on a Zoom call with our partner so we can understand the website, the brand, the human being—not just the lawyer. Then we can write radio copy that actually sounds like them. When they read it, they say, “Those are my words.” It becomes their own. And then I tell our partners, who usually don’t love how they sound on the first take, that it’s not about them. The audience needs to understand who you are, what you do, and why you want to help them. Because at the end of the day, that’s what you do—you help people in their hardest times.

Christopher: Yep.

Gary: Because watch this. Let’s take somebody who earns less than $40,000 or $50,000 a year. They’ve got a car, they get into an accident, and now their car isn’t drivable. They’re not like you or me, where they can just go get another car tomorrow. It’s devastating. And all they want when they call a law firm is somebody who will help them. That’s why I have conversations—sometimes arguments—about sympathy and empathy. For me, it’s compassion. If the people answering your phones are compassionate, more people will sign up. They made the call—they wanted you.

Christopher: That’s right.

Gary: I’m sure you’ve had plenty of calls over your career where someone didn’t sign up with your firm.

Christopher: Of course.

Gary: Find out why. I’ve lost business. I always want to know why, because that’s the only way I get better. It’s the only way my team gets better. We learn from our losses, maybe even more than from our wins.

Christopher: Oh, for sure.

Gary: We become better people through our losses—some of them can be devastating. But your personal life and your business life, they connect. You can be better at both.

Christopher: Yeah, I think the lawyer who connects emotionally and has emotional intelligence—their website doesn’t have scales of justice, arms crossed, mean expression—it shows a lawyer laughing, being human. It’s simple stuff. People just have to be normal.

Gary: Exactly.

Christopher: Anyway, so you were talking earlier about spending big bucks and not getting an instant return. You know, I’m very heavy on billboards. I dipped my toe in, then went deeper and deeper. My slogan is “Call Earley before it’s too late.” That’s my thing. So when you see me at a conference, I’m wearing blue. For the lawyer who wants to get into radio, which is expensive—they’re determined, but how do they enter that world? What if money’s tight? You’ve been there. You’ve walked that walk. How should a brand-new lawyer start building their brand?

Gary: Anybody who’s a young lawyer hanging their own shingle—their shingle is their website. Number one: you must have a website. There are so many great website companies in the legal space that can help you. And if you reach out to me or Chris, we both know plenty of them. But that’s step one.

What’s really most important, though, is taking your five-mile radius around your office and getting involved in anything and everything you can—whatever your time allows. My mentor told me when I first started my business, “You think you’re ready to hire someone? Are you working 18 hours a day?” I said, “Well…” He said, “Because the moment you hire someone, that’s money out of your pocket.” So I waited another six months and worked 18-hour days.

Everybody knows I’m not the guy who sleeps. I’m up at 3:30 in the morning, pounding out social media and emails so I can do this kind of thing during the day. But that local community—that’s the lifeblood of a new firm.

You can attest to this. You’ve had many million-dollar verdicts and settlements, but you’ve also had thousands of $10,000, $20,000, $25,000, $50,000 cases, right?

Christopher: Oh yeah, that’s where most of my action’s been.

Gary: If you treat that $10,000, $20,000, $25,000, or $50,000 case exactly the same as the million-dollar client—and then you go into your CRM system and look at where referrals came from—they’ll often trace back to those smaller cases. Because those clients were treated like human beings, like they mattered.

I think a lot of lawyers out there don’t realize that. Everyone wants that million-dollar case, but do you know where that million-dollar case probably comes from? A friend of that smaller client.

Christopher: Sure.

Gary: They’re not going to Google you cold. So now watch this—this is about referrals. Let’s say you’re a marketing lawyer—radio, TV, billboards, whatever—and I’m your client. I came to you because of a billboard. Then I send you my friend Joe, who’s got a million-dollar case. When you put that into your system, where does the credit go?

Christopher: Client referral.

Gary: Do you also give credit to the billboard?

Christopher: Well, you can only pick one, right?

Gary: Why do you have to pick one? You got me from the billboard, and you got Joe from me. Without the billboard, without the marketing, you never got either of us.

Christopher: Yeah, that’s fair.

Gary: So I think a lot of firms mislabel referrals. Because yes, it came from an existing client—but that client came from your marketing. Your marketing keeps paying off for years and years if you treat your clients right.

Christopher: Right, because the cost of acquisition keeps dropping.

Gary: Exactly.

Christopher: It gets cheaper and cheaper to acquire new clients through referrals. You might spend $2,000 to get that first client, but if that client refers five more people, suddenly the long game starts to show.

Gary: Exactly.

Christopher: What I’m thinking about during our conversation, Gary, is the long game. For the person writing those checks—starting radio or any mass media—it’s not a two-week thing; it’s a 20- or 40-year thing. It’s the long game. You put up a billboard, and it’s not like, “Let’s see what happens.” You’ll hear crickets for a while. I’ve had crickets for months and months with mass media advertising. That’s branding. But then the momentum builds—slowly, like a tsunami. You keep feeding it with activity.

We talk about John Morgan—just having the vision, the patience, and the drive to build his brand. As I get older, I realize luck plays a role. I’m not here today without luck. I wrote a book about it. I’ve had luck. But you can create opportunities to be lucky.

The lawyer who plays the long game wins. But lawyers are super impatient, Gary.

Gary: I know.

Christopher: That’s why I said you’re part therapist—maybe full-time therapist—because it’s hard. Writing those checks, putting those charges on your card, it’s scary. But you’re building something. You’ve got to think long-term. You should be sending handwritten thank-you cards to good referrers. It costs 60 cents and goes a long way. And you’ll get more referrals because of it.

Gary: A hundred percent.

Christopher: Like Henry Ford said, “I know half of my marketing is working—I just don’t know which half.” Lawyers hate that. It drives us nuts.

Gary: It’s true. Attribution drives everyone crazy. I’ve got a great example about that for you in a minute.

Gary: I’m going to tell you an interesting LSA story—again, not mentioning names. One of our partner firms said to me, “Man, I don’t know about this radio. I got 150 LSA cases this month.” I said, “That’s amazing. I want you to pick 15 of them at random and call them.” He said, “What do you want me to say?” I told him, “First, thank them for hiring your firm—because they hired you, even though they might not get to speak to you personally. Second, make sure their treatment and communication have been great with both the firm and their doctors. And third, ask them, ‘I know you got to us via Google—I’m just curious, had you ever heard or seen our firm before clicking on our name?’”

He called me back at the end of the day. Nine of them said, “I can’t get away from you on the radio.” Three of them said TV, and I asked, “Were they Hispanic?” He said, “Yeah.” I told him, “Okay, that makes sense—you’re only on Spanish TV.” And three said billboards. So, at the end of the day, ten percent of those random people you called had already seen or heard you before going to Google.

Christopher: That’s fascinating.

Gary: And here’s another thing—clients can be lazy. Do you still do pay-per-click?

Christopher: Not anymore.

Gary: But you used to.

Christopher: For many years.

Gary: Did you ever notice that your current clients would click your paid ads just to call you?

Christopher: Oh yeah, all the time.

Gary: And that costs you money—for your own clients to call you. They’d click your paid ad just to reach you, even though the case manager probably called them three days earlier. People don’t remember phone numbers anymore, and they’re not saving them. So they go to Google, click the paid ad, and boom—you just paid for your own client to reach you. Attribution is hard to trace.

Christopher: No question about it.

Gary: And time—time is everything. Whether it’s radio, TV, or billboards—if you own it, you’ll succeed with it. And if you have great employees who are compassionate, who sign the cases up properly, and then you have great case managers, paralegals, and lawyers who do great legal work to get real results—you win.

Think about this: when you look at other law firms’ reviews, what do you see?

Christopher: Yeah.

Gary: Would you say it’s fair that your bad reviews—or other firms’ bad reviews—are rarely about results?

Christopher: For sure.

Gary: They’re about communication—how the client felt. You’d love to get everyone $10 million, but you’re limited by what’s possible in each case. But if you communicate clearly, they understand that they can’t all get million-dollar checks.

Look at billboards all over the country. You see one that says, “We got our client $650,000.” I don’t want to know anybody who’s had those kinds of injuries to get that kind of recovery. But that’s what people see—and that’s what they expect—until you educate them.

Christopher: Exactly.

Gary: It’s the same in my business. We have to educate attorneys on what they should expect if they decide to partner with us. Because generally, it’s going to be an 18-month process before they start seeing real results.

Christopher: Yeah, that sounds right.

Gary: And look, I’m finding a lot of firms right now that have been TV advertisers for 15, 20, 30 years, who are now coming to us and layering on radio. Because buying television today is harder and harder.

Christopher: Oh, I believe it.

Gary: I don’t know if you saw, but I did a video yesterday. Seventy-five to eighty percent of people ages 18 to 34 still listen to regular radio. Under 25 percent watch traditional TV.

Christopher: That’s wild.

Gary: There’s all kinds of streaming television now—Hulu, Netflix, HBO, ESPN, YouTube TV, all of it. I asked an attorney yesterday, “How much do you spend a month on streaming services?” He said, “I don’t know.” I said, “Let’s do the math.” It came out to $490 a month.

Christopher: Wow.

Gary: That’s crazy. But for any advertiser today—not just law firms—it’s not like it was 40 years ago when there were three TV networks and maybe 20 cable channels.

Christopher: Right.

Gary: Now, look at YouTube, look at TikTok—there’s so much out there for people to watch. So if you’re going to put content out into the world, make it about who you are. Nobody wants to hear about how a case will be handled. They want to know who you are—authentically. They want to know you’re a family person. They want to know you care.

Christopher: Absolutely.

Gary: We see lawyers every day sitting at their desks in suits, saying, “If you’ve been hurt in an accident, call me. Let me explain what happens next.” Nobody cares. Two percent of people need a personal injury lawyer today. Ninety-eight percent don’t—they just need to remember your name and what you do, so when they need someone, they already know who to call.

Christopher: Exactly.

Gary: That’s why it’s so important to build brand awareness.

Christopher: Totally agree.

Gary: Because until they need you, everything else is just noise.

Christopher: So true.

Gary: Let me ask you—what’s the last thing you personally bought because of an ad?

Christopher: I’m hard to sell to, Gary. I think it was a book recently—something I saw advertised.

Gary: There you go. See, that’s where branding matters. You have to be there. That’s why I believe in radio and billboards. Everyone sees “Call Earley before it’s too late”—and then, when they need you, they already know you.

Christopher: Exactly. It’s the brand.

Gary: Your brand—that’s all you’ve got. It takes a lot of money, time, patience, and work to build, but authenticity is what makes it last.

Christopher: A hundred percent.

Gary: I’m not trying to be anyone else—and neither should you.

Christopher: Exactly.

Gary: When you try to be something you’re not, people can smell it instantly.

Christopher: Couldn’t agree more.

Gary: And that’s the key to long-term success in any market.

Gary: There’s a new brand I started buying clothes from recently. Everyone knows me as the “loud shirt radio guy,” but I saw an ad on Instagram for this shirt. It was from Lululemon—one of my favorite brands—and across the chest it said, Be a Good Person. I wore that shirt down in Chicago, and you know me, I always get compliments on my shirts. But I never got more compliments than I did for that one. Everyone loved it.

Christopher: Who could not like that? What are they going to argue with you about? “Be a good person”? That’s universal. As an aside, my wife just bought me a bunch of Lululemon stuff too. I love it. They print little positive messages inside, like Make today a great day on the label. Freaking genius—makes you feel good when you put it on.

Gary: Right? I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but every email I send ends with Make today great.

Christopher: I have noticed that!

Gary: And I’ve got it tattooed right here on my right bicep—Make today great.

Christopher: (laughs) No kidding! I love that.

Gary: I really believe in it. And I’ve got another one on the other arm that says Positive over Negative.

Christopher: That’s awesome, man.

Gary: Those phrases have meaning for me. I was scared to get them at first, but both mean a lot. The tattoo artist asked if I wanted them somewhere hidden and I said, “No—I want to be able to see them. They’re for me, not for anyone else.”

Christopher: That’s powerful.

Gary: One time, someone even broke down crying when they saw it.

Christopher: Wow.

Gary: Yeah. But that’s the thing—be your authentic self. That’s what we’ve been saying since the start. You want to be a great lawyer in a great law firm? Be yourself. Do what’s right. Think about your clients first. You’ll win every single time.

Christopher: A hundred percent. So, last question—how did the finger-point thing start?

Gary: (laughs) You know our good friend Jen Gore, right?

Christopher: Of course. I just saw her last week.

Gary: She turned her camera on me at LHI in Las Vegas last year while I was walking in. I said, “What are you recording me for, Jen?” She said, “I have a question for you.” I said, “Okay, what’s that?” And she goes, “Why do you point in all your pictures?”

Christopher: (laughs)

Gary: And I told her, “It’s about you.”

Christopher: That’s good. That’s really good.

Gary: And I mean that. I really do run my business that way. If I take care of you the best that I can, it’s going to come back to me. A hundred percent. Tenfold.

Christopher: I love that.

Gary: Was I always like that? No. I learned from a lot of mistakes—personal and professional.

Christopher: Same here, man.

Gary: I’m going to be 60 next year.

Christopher: You look great for 60, man!

Gary: Thank you!

Christopher: That’s wonderful. Well, when I said I was 48, I guess you’re not quite old enough to be my dad after all.

Gary: (laughs) True. But what drives me today is so different from what drove me when I was younger.

Christopher: Oh yeah, no question.

Gary: And I can’t wait to hear what my son thinks after listening to this whole conversation. Poor guy’s been sitting here the whole time.

Christopher: (laughs)

Gary: I hope he learns something about me. I hope he learns from you, too. And I hope he learns that being an attorney means your clients come first. He’s going into construction law, so he’ll be a billable-hour attorney—but it’s not about the hours. It’s about doing what’s right.

Christopher: That’s right.

Gary: Now, his boss might say it’s about the hours, I don’t know—but still. Be a good person. Help people out. If you do those two things, you’ll be fine.

Christopher: Exactly. Be bold, take risks, be a good person, help people out—success becomes inevitable. That’s what I believe.

Gary: Exactly. And watch this—what does Nike say?

Christopher: Just do it, baby.

Gary: Just do it. That tagline says everything.

Christopher: Love it.

Gary: Before we wrap up, I want to go back to branding and tell you why it’s so important. What’s the best sneaker in the world?

Christopher: Nike.

Gary: Right. Is that the brand you wear?

Christopher: Not right now, I’ve gotten older—but I’ve worn plenty of Nikes.

Gary: Did you ever read Shoe Dog—the story of Phil Knight, the founder of Nike?

Christopher: Oh yeah, fantastic book.

Gary: He had every reason to quit. Every reason to pack it in. But that guy just kept going and going and going. Everyone should read Shoe Dog. Nothing remarkable about him—just a smart guy with some luck, a ton of hustle, and belief.

Christopher: Couldn’t agree more.

Gary: And here’s the thing—have you ever gone to a podiatrist to have your foot measured and be told what sneaker is best for you?

Christopher: (laughs) No, never.

Gary: Exactly. You probably should!

Christopher: Probably!

Gary: Okay, what’s the best computer?

Christopher: I like my Windows HP personally, but that’s just me.

Gary: Have you ever sat down with a computer engineer to ask what’s truly best for your business?

Christopher: No, for sure not.

Gary: Exactly. Marketing is the same way. I’m a Windows guy too, but I bought an Apple once because of all the marketing. I didn’t like it and sold it. But here’s my point: I have no idea what the best sneaker is. I have no idea what the best computer is. And you know what else I don’t know? I don’t know what the best law firm is.

Christopher: Right. People don’t know either.

Gary: Exactly. Now, how many lawyers work in your firm?

Christopher: Three—me and two others.

Gary: Okay, and Morgan & Morgan—how many do they have, a thousand across the country?

Christopher: At least.

Gary: Right. But when people call them, do they ever say, “Hey, John, I want to talk to your best lawyer”? No—they think they’re hiring John Morgan himself.

Christopher: That’s true.

Gary: That’s the power of brand. People see you—your face, your slogan—and they think of you. “Call Earley before it’s too late.” They think they’re getting you.

Christopher: Exactly.

Gary: But realistically, how many actually speak to you?

Christopher: Not many. I can’t do what I do and personally talk to every client. I’d have to work 18-hour days.

Gary: Right. So you hire great people who do great work. You care, and you make sure the communication is solid. Usually, you only speak directly to clients when there’s an issue—or when it’s time to hand them that check.

Christopher: That’s right.

Gary: Marketing works. Brand matters. So, the big takeaway: be a good person, but brand the hell out of yourself.

Christopher: A hundred percent agree.

Gary: And here’s the thing—you can do it for free. TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn—doesn’t cost a dollar. You just have to do the work. Show up. Be consistent. Press “post.”

Christopher: Exactly.

Gary: Here’s a little social media trick. Whenever I feel uncomfortable about posting something—like, “Should I share this?”—that’s always the content that performs the best. You’ve got to be a little different. Like Nike. Like John Morgan. Like TopDog. Just be different.

Christopher: I love that.

Gary: I just started a YouTube channel, by the way. I’m grateful to have 16 followers.

Christopher: (laughs) That’s a start!

Gary: Exactly! The goal is 20, then 30. I just keep putting content out. I’ve never done YouTube before—always did Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. I’m trying something new.

Christopher: Good for you.

Gary: And I might even launch a podcast.

Christopher: What the hell are you waiting for, man?

Gary: (laughs) I might be doing it with someone in your market.

Christopher: Oh really? Who?

Gary: You already know him—you’re even in the same building, and you still hadn’t met him for the longest time.

Christopher: (laughs) Yeah, we’ve met now!

Gary: He’s back?

Christopher: Yeah, finally. Saw him recently.

Gary: Good. And by the way, he’s got the best hair in the legal industry.

Christopher: (laughs) Legendary. Those locks are glorious.

Gary: Chris, I truly appreciate our friendship. This was fun—different from most podcasts I do.

Christopher: I’m glad, man. You’re a bright, shining light in a space that can be pretty boring sometimes. It’s nice to see your personality pop—and your shirts! I appreciate what you’re doing to push the profession forward. Keep your foot on the gas.

Gary: Thank you so much, Chris. I really appreciate it.

Christopher: All right, last thing—how can people get in touch with you?

Gary: I’m on Instagram and Facebook under “Gary Sarner.” The agency is ROI 360 Plus—spelled out “Plus,” not the plus sign, because they don’t allow it. And my cell number is 954-560-0371. If you have a question about anything, I’ll help you. No charge for a conversation.

Christopher: Make sure you reach out to Gary. Gary, thank you so much. I really appreciate you.

Gary: Thank you, Chris.

Christopher: That’s it for this episode of The Earley Show. Be sure to check out more episodes on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and the Answering Legal YouTube channel.