David Craig: 50 Employees, 10 Lawyers, and Almost Nobody Leaves. Here's Why.

Welcome to episode 60 of The Earley Show, hosted by personal injury attorney Christopher Earley! For this conversation, Chris is joined by David Craig, managing partner of Craig, Kelley & Faultless LLC.

Check out the episode below. You can also enjoy it on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

David and Chris go deep on what it looks like to be a high-level trial lawyer and a high-level marketer at the same time: the vinyl phone book covers that beat the lawyers who owned the back cover, the decision to flip from 80% attorney referrals to 80% consumer marketing, and how he squeezes clips, blogs and ads out of a single podcast interview. He also explains why he writes books for consumers instead of lawyers, the buy-in formula he adapted from John Morgan, why he gives associates 50% of any case they bring in, and the Monday-morning bacon that keeps 50 employees from leaving.

About our guest:

David Craig is the managing partner of Craig, Kelley & Faultless LLC in Indianapolis, Indiana, a firm he started in 1999 with two partners, no cases and no money — and which now has 10 lawyers and 50 employees. He is board certified in truck accident law, sits on the board of regents of the Academy of Truck Accident Attorneys (ATAA), and hosts the ATAA-adjacent trucking seminar he runs each year for the Indiana Trial Lawyers Association. He hosts the After the Crash podcast, aimed at consumers rather than attorneys, and is the author of Semi-Truck Wrecks: A Guide for Victims and Their Families and It's Never Been Easier to Hire the Wrong Attorney. Roughly 60 to 70 percent of his caseload is commercial motor vehicle and semi-truck cases. Two of his three children are lawyers in the firm and the third is the firm's videographer.

Connect with David:

Visit David's firm website

Listen to the After the Crash podcast

Topics covered

-Growing up in Indiana with a psychologist father who was also a Marine — and how "how do you feel?" plus "get over it" shaped him

-Why he traded politics for law: wanting to make a difference without being dependent on anybody

-The law school pivot — one A after a semester of trying, and a decision to out-strategize the honor roll by clerking for the best trial lawyers he could find

-Starting Craig, Kelley & Faultless in 1999 with two partners, no cases, no money, and his wife running the firm

-The vinyl phone book cover: how covering every phone book in southeastern Indiana beat the lawyers who owned the back cover — until the phone book company offered him the back cover

-Bike helmet giveaways, laundromat pull-tab cards, and why getting the word out is as fun as winning a trial

-Maximizing one asset: turning a single podcast interview into clips, blogs, static ads and months of content

-Why he niched After the Crash down to trucking and aimed it at consumers instead of attorneys

-Asking "how does this help me get a commercial motor vehicle case?" of every marketing decision

-The shift from B2B to B2C — and the surprise that attorney referrals grew after he stopped marketing to attorneys

-Stacking authority for Google and AI: books, national speaking and hosting his own trucking seminar

-Turning down speaking gigs and protecting your time

-The 80/20 filter: start with "is this helpful to anybody else?"

-Marketing two consumer-facing books, and the prospective client who interviewed him using questions from his own book

-"I will be extraordinarily grateful for the opportunity to represent your family" — the reframe that won a case against three other firms

-Becoming a category of one, and why the less you press, the more likely you are to get the case

-Retention: hiring law clerks, watching who takes the trash out, and picking good human beings

-Equal partners, an open-book firm with a CFO, and a buy-in formula adapted from John Morgan's book

-Giving associates 50% of any case they bring in — and bankrolling it

-Accountability, seasons of life, and working every day with his kids

-Monday breakfast and Thursday lunch: culture that costs very little

-A day in the life at 66: a 9-to-10 open door, six days a week, and a $25.25 million settlement

-Why he believes trial lawyers are the future in an AI world

-Hiring a Fortune 500 programmer, building software nobody else has, and treating competition as fuel

People and resources mentioned

-David Craig — Craig, Kelley & Faultless LLC — ckflaw.com

-Scott Faultless and B.J. Kelley — David's founding partners

-After the Crash — David Craig's trucking podcast for consumers

-Semi-Truck Wrecks: A Guide for Victims and Their Families (2020)

-It's Never Been Easier to Hire the Wrong Attorney

-Tanner Jones — Consultwebs

-PIMCon — where Chris and David both spoke

-Crisp — David's coaching and mastermind group

-ATAA — Academy of Truck Accident Attorneys

-Indiana Trial Lawyers Association — host organization for David's annual trucking seminar

-John Morgan — his book on valuing a law firm shaped David's partner buy-in formula

-practicetipoftheday.com — Chris Earley's free weekly email list for lawyers

Learn more about Chris' practice, the Earley Law Group, here!

Check out Chris' book "Scaling The Wall" here!

The Earley Show is a part of the Answering Legal Podcast Network.

Interested in learning more about Answering Legal? Book an appointment to speak with us here!

You can also give us a call at 631-866-0801.

Episode Transcript:

Announcer (00:00)

The Earley Show is brought to you by our friends at Answering Legal. For more than a decade, attorneys have trusted Answering Legal's 24/7 virtual receptionist service to keep their phones covered and their clients cared for. Now, they're raising the bar with an AI-powered intake chatbot, live translation services in over 180 languages, and 76 seamless tech integrations. Answering Legal's goal: make running a law practice simpler while helping you capture every new client opportunity. And don't worry, the receptionist team is still the best in the business at turning first-time callers into loyal clients. Find out what's possible by visiting answeringlegal.com. You'll find a link to the site in the description of this episode. Now, let's get to the show.

Chris Earley (00:52)

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Earley Show sponsored by friends over at Answering Legal. I'm your host Chris Earley and as you know on this podcast we always bring you the very best and very brightest in the legal industry and today is no freaking exception. We have David Craig. He's a very successful attorney. Handles a lot of trucking cases. He's a fascinating guy. He's a guy who takes action which I love and that resonates with me. He's he's not a guy that sits around. He's he's a very active guy. Gets a lot of stuff done. That's why he's so successful. He's headquartered his firm in Indiana, but he's spread across multiple states. So, we're going to talk about a lot of interesting things. We're going to learn a lot from him. So, as always, make sure you sharpen your pencils. There'll be plenty of writer downers this episode of the Earley Show. So, David, welcome to the show, my friend.

David Craig (01:38)

Thank you, Chris. Really appreciate the invitation.

Chris Earley (01:40)

Oh, I appreciate you. You and I met at PIMCon, and the way I learned about you was Tanner Jones from Consultwebs said, "You know what? You got to meet David Craig. He's not like you." I said, "Okay." And so you and I met at PIMCon where we both got to uh get on stage and you got on stage. You talked about getting stuff done and I I love that about you. But before we get to today and all the amazing things you've you're doing and have done, can you sort of take us back? You know, where did you where'd you grow up? Brothers and sisters, what did mom and dad do for work? Take us back if you could.

David Craig (02:14)

Yeah, so I was uh born in Richmond, Indiana. Always lived in Indiana. My dad uh uh was going through school when I was a kid. My mom and dad had to get married. She was she didn't finish high school. And so my dad was in college. So she kind of worked and took care of us. My dad was always in school getting his masters then getting the doctor's degree. Uh he was a psychologist and um he worked for uh the the the state of Indiana. So we moved to to around Indianapolis, Plainfield which is close to the capital and he worked at the Indiana Boys School uh with juvenile delinquents. And so I had a sister I still have a sister. My dad's since passed away. My dad was an old Marine though. I always think it's kind of funny because he was a psychologist

Chris Earley (03:00)

and a Marine. That's cool.

David Craig (03:01)

Now that's a heck of a combination because you know how do you feel? Get over it.

Chris Earley (03:08)

I love that. That's great man.

David Craig (03:10)

And so I you know it was it was definitely instrumental in my upbringing and uh but he was uh uh it was u it was always good. They always supported what supported me through so uh I was always not the easiest uh child I'm sure but uh but then I uh I I kind of had an interest in politics.

Chris Earley (03:28)

Oh yeah.

David Craig (03:28)

Uh my dad was a a major Democrat. My mom was a major Republican. And so you know we had heated discussions but they were always you know they were okay. I mean, you loved each other and so it was okay to disagree. And so I grew up in that environment. Thought I wanted to go into politics. Got active in politics um at a college level. Um was student body president in my college. I was active in the young Republicans and and you know I found out that and and the reason I wanted to be in politics was because I wanted to make a difference and and that has never changed. But what has changed was once I got involved I realized that I probably would not be able to make a difference.

Chris Earley (04:07)

Okay.

David Craig (04:07)

Um, and so I felt like law was a good avenue for me to go into because that's what I wanted to do is I wanted to make a difference and I felt like I could do more as a lawyer than I could as a politician because I wasn't independently wealthy. I didn't have money and I was always going to have to be dependent upon other folks,

Chris Earley (04:25)

right?

David Craig (04:26)

As a lawyer, I can be independent. I can do what I want to do and make a difference.

Chris Earley (04:31)

I love that. All right. So, you you you graduate law school. Where did you first land after that?

David Craig (04:38)

I had always clerked. So my very first year of law school, I I tried really hard. Um and and I realized I got one A. Uh and I'm like, man, these these other students are a lot smarter than I am. And so after my first semester, I thought, you know what? I'm not going to be a straight A student. I'm not going to be top of my class. Um I got one A after trying really, really hard. Uh so I decided I'd start working. So, I started looking for who the best trial lawyers were.

Chris Earley (05:05)

Okay.

David Craig (05:06)

And I started going to get experience clerking. So, I clerked all the way through after my first semester in law school. I clerked for other lawyers, trial lawyers. Um, and just wanted I just soaked up everything I could gain from watching trial lawyers try cases. And one of the firms, my last one I clerked for, they were mainly kind of a business law type group. And uh, and they needed a litigator. So, I clerked for them. And so soon as I graduated, they they wanted me to come on as a litigator. I came on as a litigator and stayed there for a little while and then eventually uh moved into a personal injury firm and then 27 years ago started this law firm.

Chris Earley (05:45)

What attracted you to get those clerkships or how did you get those clerkships with trial lawyers? Why did you did you stumble into that or you kind of wanted that?

David Craig (05:51)

No, I I looked and said, "Okay, I mean some of you know how you you know as well as I do the the way you build a business or is is strategy. The way you win a case is strategy." And so I don't think it's any different when I was in law school. I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to be an A student. So when I compete for jobs,

Chris Earley (06:07)

yeah,

David Craig (06:07)

I'm not going to have the best GPA. However, I can go find out." So at that time, I thought maybe I wanted to be a criminal defense lawyer. One of the best criminal defense lawyers was out in Hancock County. And so I went out and said, "Look, I'll work for next to nothing." which was they took me up on and and I I mean literally probably lost money by the time I drove back and forth. But but the reality was I learned I I got to go into courtrooms with him. I got to watch him try cases. I learned what to do and I learned what not to do. Then I decided, okay, criminal defense law was not for me. But I loved I loved trial. I loved comp competition. Um I loved working with people. And so I loved litigation. So, the next firm I went to was more of a a broad-based litigation firm. Um, and so I got to do all different types of litigation and got to see, okay, what do I like? Was it, you know, there was family law litigation, there was criminal, there was corporate litigation, but it was mainly more corporate litigation. And then my third clerking job was with another litigation firm, but I was always very I mean I applied, interviewed, didn't care how much money I made, although my wife was supporting me through that time, but I I I didn't care so much about what I made. Still don't. Um I cared about what I learned.

Chris Earley (07:25)

Yeah.

David Craig (07:26)

And and so by working with people who I could learn from, I never had problems getting a job because they build on each other. Okay. This this kid is he's drafting documents. He's walking in the court with him. He's getting to help uh put trials together. And so as a result, um people were willing to hire me because I had the experience.

Chris Earley (07:45)

I like that. I call that stacking personally. You stack things, right? You stack and you get more authority, you get more attractive to higher, you know, caliber um positions perhaps. Right. So yeah, I'm not a math major, but I think you said in '90— 27 years ago. So was that '98 when you started?

David Craig (08:03)

1999 is when I started.

Chris Earley (08:05)

1. Did you— you hung a shingle by yourself?

David Craig (08:07)

Um so what I did was I was successful because of law being a law clerk. So I always hired law clerks. So one of my law clerks um over 30 some years ago was a guy named Scott Faultless and Scott followed me um um and he uh has been with me since he was in law school. And then another gentleman B.J. Kelley um I met him at another firm. And so the three there are four attorneys at that firm. Three of us, Craig, Kelley, and Faultless were there uh with this other attorney and we practiced there for a while. And then like I said about 26 27 years ago, we decided to hang our own shingle out and we started Craig, Kelley & Faultless. And uh we've been together ever since.

Chris Earley (08:50)

Wow. That's a that's a long time. That's almost like a hundred years in in in PI. There's so much shifting and movement. That's that's kind of rare. I I'm fascinated, you know, to get into your, you know, why why is the retention there before we get there? So, you guys came together, you three lawyers, right? And you put your flag in the ground and said, "We're going to we're going to start a firm." I assume you guys had cases, right?

David Craig (09:16)

That when we left, we had none.

Chris Earley (09:17)

Oh.

David Craig (09:17)

Um, so when we left the firm we were with, we we left all the cases.

Chris Earley (09:22)

Wow.

David Craig (09:22)

Um, and then we we said, "Hey, look, we're leaving. was it, you know, you you either need to change the firm structure or you need to understand that we may leave." And then over time, some of those clients that were with him came to us. Um, and then we just split the fees with him and and gave him back and his his expenses. And quite frankly, I think he probably did better that way. Um, and so we worked the cases. Um, but then we started have to figure out how to get business in the door.

Chris Earley (09:49)

Right.

David Craig (09:50)

When I started our firm, I I invited the other two lawyers, my partners, to come with me. I said, "But don't plan on making any money." Right? Uh I mean, we we probably go for over a year where we won't make any money at all. My wife was going to help us run the firm. She my youngest son had just started full-time school, like kindergarten, first grade. And um and so I said, you know, she had stayed home with my kids, our kids. And then I said, "Hey, now we've got Bobb's now started school. How about coming and helping me start this law firm?" And she did. And but we had which was tough because we had no income then because she wasn't working anywhere else. And my one partner, his wife was a doctor. Um and so we just we started with nothing. Uh but with with although we had certainly a reputation by that time I was trying cases and so a lot of lawyers knew who we were. Um and so we knew that we would get referrals relatively quickly because when you tried a case in a small county, everybody in the county knew you tried the case and if you did well then all of a sudden a lot of the local lawyers in that county, you know, would refer their cases to you. And so we had a you know so as soon as we we split off started calling lawyers saying hey look here's we are if we if I can do what you do if I can get referrals if I can help you out don't hesitate to give you know give me a call be happy to work with you and co-counsel with you. And so we started that way with three lawyers and my wife and now we have 50 employees and 10 lawyers.

Chris Earley (11:27)

I'm always fascinated by the come up, like the the journey up, right? So, you started from scratch. You had good reputations. That's about all you had. You didn't have any money. So, did you have a couple big hits, big jury, you know, settlements or or jury hits then or was just sort of a slow burn to getting some cash where you could kind of get going?

David Craig (11:45)

Yeah, it was slow. I mean, so again, so I looked at it and said, "Okay, you know, how do I compete?"

Chris Earley (11:51)

Yeah.

David Craig (11:51)

With the other folks. And so, luckily, I could try cases. So, that distinguished me a little bit,

Chris Earley (11:56)

right? So then you knew you could get referrals from other attorneys and so that so then you had to put the word out. Hey, here I am. Let me help you try cases.

David Craig (12:04)

Back then there were phone books. So phone books dominated the market. Problem was if the people who had the back of the phone books never gave them up. And so it was kind of funny. I got this idea that I would go cover everybody's phone book with a vinyl cover. And so I went to a vinyl cover company, said, "Hey, look, how about I do an exclusive deal with me in the state of Indiana where I you cover the phone books with a plastic cover." I hired an artist to draw the local courthouse um and put on the front. I put all the emergency numbers on the on the phone book. And then I put my big ad on the back. And so all of a sudden everybody and the funny thing was it worked better than what I anticipated

Chris Earley (12:47)

really

David Craig (12:47)

because the people with the back of the phone book all of a sudden couldn't figure out why they weren't getting calls because a lot of times they didn't even know that we were there. Uh plus then I was I would do a marketing card and ask who the prominent firms were in their county. And so we did that all throughout southeastern Indiana and um and covered every phone book literally. And it worked so darn good though that everybody dropped off the back of the phone book uh after about two years, two, three years and all of a sudden the phone book came company came to me and said, "How would you like to buy the back of the phone books?"

Chris Earley (13:23)

No kidding.

David Craig (13:24)

And so, so we did that and of course phone books no longer are are thing. But I think that's the thing is that people tell me all the time, I don't know how I can build a business. And I'm like, well then you're not really you're not giving them much of a thought because you know people used to say, oh you you can't get the back of the phone book. Okay, well that's true. So how do you how do you deal with that? You can either say I can't get the back of the phone book or you can say oh I'll cover it uh for a lot less than what the phone book was had was running. And then we just I've been very creative um in how I mean I can remember putting cards up in laundromats that had little pull tags off uh so injury.

Chris Earley (14:06)

I've done it.

David Craig (14:07)

Yeah, I've done that. I've done you name it.

Chris Earley (14:09)

Yeah,

David Craig (14:09)

I did community events. Uh we did a lot of bike helmet giveaways. I had a little kid got killed, didn't have a helmet on, took the fee, put it right back in, given away bike helmets. Have given them away, you know, since then thou tens of thousands. Um, but I think, you know, you look at it and you say, you know, how can I stand out? How can we be unique? How can we do provide a quality service? Um, but how do we get the word out? And that's then that's it's I I find that just as exciting as as winning a trial, quite frankly.

Chris Earley (14:41)

Well, you're an interesting guy because you're a high you're a high level trial lawyer. You're also a high level marketer. And honestly, David, I don't see that a lot. Usually, you're a really good lawyer or you're a really good marketer, right? And so I think I think that's it's what I'm really fascinated by is like straddling that and really being good at both at a high level. The phone book thing was really super creative. It probably didn't break the bank even though you weren't, you know, flushed with cash. It was probably phone companies probably like, "Okay, sure, whatever. We'll take this amount." But that like got you in the door and then you sort of pushed the door down by getting on the back of the cover. I would imagine that really changed the game because I started practicing in 2005 and yet Yellow Pages, you know, they were still a thing and I I never thought of that. I would just get a little bitty ad, but stuff worked. And the laundromat stuff, I've done that. I've done I've dated, we flyered cars in a parking lot, you know? I mean, un just unlimited things, but to be creative. So, I I'm really fascinated by how you leverage marketing assets, right? I definitely want to get back into the retention element because that's fascinating as well. But just could you talk to us about because you talk about that at PIMCon on stage where you you just like get stuff done, right? You you create a marketing asset, but then you spin it off like six, seven times, right? A lot of lawyers don't honestly don't think as creatively. What's your approach? How do you market or how has your marketing evolved? Have you always done that where you create a piece of content, you spin it, or have you sort of gotten a little bit better through the years?

David Craig (16:12)

you know, I' I've I've gotten better at it over the years. And I also joined like I know you belong to other groups uh me, you know, where you have uh uh talk and share ideas with other attorneys. I do as well. Um Crisp is who I belong with.

Chris Earley (16:27)

Crisp. Mogill have done a great job and

David Craig (16:30)

and they certainly um help you look at it and say, "Hey, am I maximizing my assets?" And that's and I think that's you know I thought I was then I sat down and listened to them realized that I could get more out of each asset that I had. Um so I I credit them for helping me. Um most of my ideas are other people's ideas that I've tweaked um that I've taken a I got an idea back cover. Oh, okay. Oh, let's cover them. But I think that um that's the key. And then we really then maximize um whatever asset it is that I'm I'm going to use. So let's say I I have a podcast. My podcast is called After the Crash. So rather than and I and trucking is what I do. So that's my niche. Um so I do a lot of trucking. My firm does general PI but I I focus large on large cases. Um and probably 60 70% of my cases are are truck truck accidents. I do a podcast but instead of doing a general podcast, I focus on trucking. Now, I gear it towards my audience as the I I market to the consumer instead of the attorneys. Each time you have a guest on, then you figure out what can I do with that interview and you dissect it and you take it apart and you do clips, you do weekly clips, you do monthly clips, you do blog articles, um you do advertisement, you do static ads, and you do as many different things as you can think of with each t each topic because you you've got this one great piece of asset. Now, how do I take it and maximize my my benefit from it? And uh and so I think that's helped me um because that way you don't have to create as much uh create as much content.

Chris Earley (18:21)

Totally. I love that. I I'm just writing notes down as you talk. So, a little bit of inside baseball. I'm really into batching things with marketing as well. So, today I'm doing three podcasts. You're one of the three. It's going to create so much content. And then what am I going to do? I'm going to send to you, hey David, here's the here's the finished product. you you want to share that and a guy like you will share it. I know but like the the potential is unlimited. The LinkedIn social newsletters it's just it's unlimited but I'm telling you man like not a lot of people do that like Lord like they don't teach us that stuff. We have to teach ourselves right.

David Craig (18:56)

Well I think if you think about it Google's algorithm I mean what what helps you rank high um is you know putting out a lot of great content helpful content and that's what you're doing in your podcast. help put out content.

Chris Earley (19:08)

Totally.

David Craig (19:08)

And and depending on what your topic is, mine would be trucking, truck accidents, uh wrongful deaths, you know, you name it. And any of those areas. And so, for example, parking is a big problem in in truck cases. So, there's not enough parking. So, you do you invite somebody on that is tackling the parking problem for truck accident for trucks, semi-trucks, motor vehicles, and that person gives you content.

Chris Earley (19:34)

Right. Right.

David Craig (19:34)

And then that but that a lot of key words are in there.

Chris Earley (19:38)

Oh yeah.

David Craig (19:39)

And so when you're when you're dissecting when you're doing a blog on it, when you're doing all your other stuff with it, it's helping. Plus it can be create a lot of conversation. So a lot of truckers will comment on it. So suddenly now you're arguing with truckers uh or or whomever.

Chris Earley (19:54)

Right. Right.

David Craig (19:55)

And as a result that's creating even more um so you know I agree with you. I mean, why are you doing I mean, so many times people just want to copy somebody and say, I'm going to do a podcast uh or I'm going to put an ad up or I'm going to do this or that. And the question really is is why? I mean, my marketing team, I ask them all the time, how does this help me get a commercial motor vehicle case?

Chris Earley (20:21)

Right.

David Craig (20:21)

If it doesn't, what's the point? If it doesn't, yeah, then why am I wasting time, energy, or money on something that's not helping me get what I'm after?

Chris Earley (20:29)

Right. But you also don't overthink it. You're just you let it rip. You you'll make it some things hit, some things fall flat, but you're going to you're going to have enough hits to justify that. So I was thinking you spend most of your time marketing to attorneys, but is that not the case? It's mostly the consumer or is it half and half?

David Craig (20:45)

So when I started because I didn't have any business.

Chris Earley (20:48)

Yeah.

David Craig (20:49)

And so attorneys was the most logical way to go. And so 80% of my practice was lawyers referrals when I started for years. 80% of my business with lawyer referrals. But the problem was I started seeing a change and I started seeing large marketers come in the market. And so some of the people who could refer cases to me before weren't getting the case. So a small county lawyer may no longer get it because of a a local marketer. So I started seeing that trend and I thought, well, wait a minute now. How am I going to do how am I going to compete for that? And so I shifted my gears and said instead of marketing to lawyers I'm going to shift from a B2B to a B2C. And so I started shifting my marketing to consumers. Now the funny thing is probably 80% of my business now is consumers. 20% is attorneys.

Chris Earley (21:43)

Okay.

David Craig (21:43)

So it's flip-flopped.

Chris Earley (21:44)

Wow.

David Craig (21:44)

But the funny thing is is that I have more cases from attorney referrals today than I did back when it was 80% of my business.

Chris Earley (21:53)

Really?

David Craig (21:54)

So now 20% is more than 80. It hasn't hurt my referral business. In fact, it helped my referral business, but I now market to consumers. And so that's a I sleep better at night knowing that I'm not dependent upon lawyers referring me their business because what happens when they don't have business to refer to me?

Chris Earley (22:14)

You know, I never really thought of it like that where these, you know, big dogs come into your come into the market that's just going to I really never it sounds ridiculous. never thought of it like that that that the smaller lawyers aren't going to get as many cases to refer to to you and I right so so you sort of you know adapted that way let me ask you about thought leadership you we sort about stacking that's really big word to me we talked about stacking your authority right we both spoke at PIMCon we both written books at podcast this isn't accidental stuff here right we're doing the reps in the gym to get better and stronger but could you talk about how you approach I know how I look at it but how do you look at you stacking creating you becoming a thought leader like how do you how do you do that?

David Craig (22:58)

I think it's important for especially when you're marketing to consumer. So then you're you're dependent upon Google now or AI searches and so you have to be an authority or you're not going to rank. So now the question is how do you become an authority? And so you write books, you host podcast. I speak at national conferences on trucking. Almost every conference I speak on or podcast I always have an opportunity to mention I do trucking. Um, and so that creates more me as an authority on the subject. I'll be speaking down in uh North Carolina for the ATAA conference coming up. I spoke last year at the Texas. I'm on the board of regents of the ATAA. I run a trucking seminar in Indiana for the Indiana trial lawyers. I host it. I I I pick the speakers. I speak at it. Um, and that's once a year. And so those type of things help create authority. I wrote two books again, but they're aimed at consumers, not lawyers.

Chris Earley (23:59)

Right. Right.

David Craig (24:00)

But then what happens is the more authority you become, the bigger the authority you become, then you get more opportunities to speak, it it builds. But I build it, I do it not because I love to speak at conferences. I do it because it helps my rankings with AI. It helps my rankings with Google. Now, I do enjoy it as well, right? But that's not why I do it,

Chris Earley (24:27)

right? I I appreciate the honesty. I I really do. Are you at the point, Do you have to create these opportunities through speaking gigs or they kind of come to you or both?

David Craig (24:36)

They come to me. I turn down more than I um I than I ever would have thought of when I was younger. But I still look for them. Um I still am constantly looking. I And part of my marketing team is like, "Okay, but but I I look at and say, okay, what do I do? What am I doing? Why am I doing it? You only have so much time. And so, is that a good use of my time? Um, and what do I gain? What do we get out of it? I like making a difference. I like helping. I like teaching. I don't I don't keep secrets. I I tell people my, you know, what I do. I've benefited from the um others have helped me o over the years and I feel very blessed in that sense. And so, I look at and say, "Hey, I'm more than happy to share." Now the the reality is I share what I know.

Chris Earley (25:24)

Yeah.

David Craig (25:24)

Um and most people won't copy it.

Chris Earley (25:27)

I know. Well well well I think it's effort it clear. I know man. Like I'm the same way. Like I and I wasn't I don't know about you. I wasn't always like this. I'm kind of a a late bloomer here in the abundance department. I believe now there's so much work out there. But I think you and I have an unfair advantage because we're actually going to you know we're going to we're going to do the work that the average bear won't do. And I'm I'm just convinced. I mean, this stuff is hard, right? But then it you get better at your craft.

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Chris Earley (26:34)

What do you think because you're you have a lot of lines in the water with your marketing. What do you think is, you know, this 80/20 approach we talked about? Like what do you think is the 20% of your marketing effort that's bringing you 80% of the results? Do you feel like

David Craig (26:48)

I start with a premises, is this helpful to anybody else? If it's helpful to someone, then I probably will benefit from it. Um, I do have an abundance philosophy. I don't I don't look at people as competitors. Um, and I just I compete. I try to every year I try to get better. what can I do this year to do better next year? Um I start off I have a big marketing at the end of the year I bring my whole marketing team in my um Consultwebs my um Crisp my marketing um Harlan we bring everybody together in my office and my marketing team and we say okay what can we how can we do a better job next year um and we don't look and say what's everybody else doing where you look at and say what are we doing and what can we do better right and I think as long as you're looking at it and you're doing stuff that's helpful, that's going to help the consumer, at least from my standpoint that I market the consumer. If you're gonna if it's going to help consumers, then I think it's going to help you. I had a call I had somebody on the podcast here recently and it was a safety outfit out of Washington DC and they called me and they said, "Hey, look Dave, I just want to let you know I got a call from Michigan, a victim. They were really h they heard the podcast. They were thrilled and they're" I didn't get a case out of it. But the reality was I helped somebody

Chris Earley (28:03)

Yeah.

David Craig (28:03)

get somebody else. And I believe that will come back to me somehow.

Chris Earley (28:11)

100% it will. There's it's it's guaranteed. It's un inescapable. 100%. I really I I'm I really appreciate your honesty when you said like you don't love speaking. I don't love getting on airplanes and going across the country to speak, but I feel like it's so impactful because talk about cutting up those assets and this is what I do. I will offer to have the audience enter my my email uh email blast I send out to lawyers across the country because I want to stay in touch that follow-up marketing. So that's the value to me. It's not just the presentation with butts in seats for 30 minutes but carry on the conversation. So maybe four and a half years later that that guy in Montana that gal in Ohio has a big case right and they thought oh yeah the guy Earley gave me some value.

David Craig (28:52)

I do also and the other thing I I always learn stuff every time I go to

Chris Earley (28:54)

100%.

David Craig (28:54)

And so I I I like going purely just because I can learn from other people.

Chris Earley (29:00)

Yeah. You're you're getting out of the office. You're getting out and um being exposed. You're you're vibrating in a different way. Right. I feel like you're you're hearing different things in different ways. I I love the approach of writing books. Most lawyers, I'll be honest, are too lazy to do it. You said you have two books, right?

David Craig (29:15)

Right.

Chris Earley (29:16)

How do you market your books? Because that's those are golden assets if we're talking about like, you know, levels of impact. How do you market your books?

David Craig (29:24)

the same thing that I do every day. I mean, I go on podcasts. Um, so when a book comes out and the first one was it's never or the second first one was Semi-Truck Wrecks: A Guide for Victims and Their Families. And so that was in 2005 or no 2020. And so that one um I went on and and pushed it out social media um press releases was on guest on podcast. Still use it. I give it I send it out to every client. So, somebody contacts me and says they have a truck wreck, it's overnighted to them immediately. And the second one I did last year was It's Never Been Easier to Hire the Wrong Attorney. Um, and so again, marketed to consumers. How do you know if you're picking the right attorney? Um, and so, same way was a bestseller. That one got more traction because it was more broad.

Chris Earley (30:15)

Yeah.

David Craig (30:16)

Than trucking.

Chris Earley (30:17)

Yeah.

David Craig (30:17)

You know, and same way I send that out. Um, and it it doesn't matter to me if they I mean I'd like them to hire me, but I like the fact that they know what questions to ask um how to how to pick the right attorney and that's more important to me than if they hire me. Again, I feel like it'll come back to me. So, you help provide information and I use those books and I tell you what, there's, you know, when somebody's competing and they're looking say, "How am I going I'm going to pick a truck wreck lawyer."

Chris Earley (30:45)

Yeah.

David Craig (30:45)

They Google.

Chris Earley (30:45)

Yeah.

David Craig (30:46)

And so, they see that I have these couple books.

Chris Earley (30:49)

Yeah,

David Craig (30:49)

they see that I'm board certified in truck accident law. They see that I get my results. I feel like I have an unfair advantage over other lawyers that are competing with us. And then on top of that, I I always bring them in. I had one not long. It was a horrible some lady burn up the semi and the guy narrowed down to three firms and he wanted to interview us face to face. Well, in my first book, I say you should interview. you should narrow down to two or three and you should go interview them because it's it's a huge case. It's going to make a huge difference and you're gonna spend a lot of time with these people, right?

Chris Earley (31:21)

You ought to like them.

David Craig (31:22)

Yeah. So, they came in and I didn't know they had my book because they scheduled an appointment and uh they came in right away. They started asking me questions from my book and I'm like, "Okay, I know they've read my book." Um, at the end they said, "Well, do you want to know, we have two more interviews. Do you want to know who the lawyers are?" I said, "No, I don't I don't care who they are."

Chris Earley (31:44)

Yeah.

David Craig (31:44)

And they go, "well, how do you know that you're better than" I said, "Well, I'm not saying I'm better than them, but ask yourself this at the end of the day, is that if you hire me, I will be extraordinarily grateful for the opportunity to represent your family. Walk away and this see how you feel when you walk away from the other off lawyers, no matter who they are. Do they make you feel the same way or do they make you feel like you should be grateful that you have them as your lawyer?" I go, it's a very little difference, but if I'm going to spend the next couple years with somebody, I want somebody who really is appreciative of the fact that they're my clients, that I'm their clients. And you know what? They hired me. They came back. They told me who the lawyers were. Very good lawyers, but they think they're you're lucky to have them as a lawyer,

Chris Earley (32:34)

right?

David Craig (32:34)

I feel very lucky to have these folks my clients.

Chris Earley (32:37)

You flipped it, you know.

David Craig (32:38)

Yeah. Yeah, it's a little different.

Chris Earley (32:40)

I really like this because you're what I'm thinking in my head is you're a category of one. You're not you're not worried about the other lawyers. And so I would have said the same thing like I don't really care what those lawyers names are like because that shows you're competing and there's scarcity. You know, it's like I would encourage the listener when you're, you know, trying, you know, when you're meeting with a client, you want the case, like you you can't be aggressive. I don't care what side you It's. It's like the less you press, the more likely you are to get the case. like don't press just like this is a big decision and I I really make that a big deal David. I'm like, "Listen, David, you have a big choice who you're going to hire for this case." Okay? I encourage you to take your time in that decision. I would be honored and privileged to serve you. This is not my decision. This is a big decision of yours, and I respect that. I think that's really helpful at a human level to connect with people. So, you're not just, you know, sleazy and like trying to sell here, here, David, sign the dotted line right now. But I really like the category of one. You wrote a book about like how to avoid loss. In other words, how to avoid hiring the wrong lawyer. All paths lead to Craig, right? because it's like and that's brilliant and it's true though, right? Cuz look, I've written the book. I'm designing a new website right now with a with a company and I want to, you know, I have pictures of me speaking and my, you know, books and ABA and authorship, leadership, thought leadership, like that stuff matters. So, I would encourage listener, do whatever you can to sprinkle pepper on your website, authority signals, right? How are you different? If you have nothing to separate you, let's get going and start cracking and getting some stuff done to get there, right? Slowly but takes years.

David Craig (34:11)

Absolutely.

Chris Earley (34:12)

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Could you talk about the firm and and the retention? Why are people sticking around so long? Like that's kind of unusual.

David Craig (34:20)

I I could have grown quicker. I mean, I could have 20 lawyers. I I have the work. I have 10. I involve my attorneys early on. I hire them. All my lawyers were law clerks. One was legal intern except for one of my partners. I pick and choose the ones that I think fit. Um and for us, it's more are you do you care? Are you client-centered? I assume most people go finish law school or have some intelligence, but not everybody knows how to interact with people and not everybody. Sometimes people come out law school does a really good job of making you feel important and we're no more important than anybody else.

Chris Earley (34:56)

Yes.

David Craig (34:57)

And so I kind of work with law clerks, see who treats my staff right, who takes the trash out, who does go donuts, who does all those things because those are all things I still do. And so you look at it and you pick the lawyers who are good human beings. Um and then you treat them right. You treat them fairly. Um you I'm open. I'll answer any questions. People come talk to me about stuff, finances, whatever. I I'm open. I I've never been secretive. Um I run my firm like a business. I have a CFO. I have um reviewed financial statements. I don't have anything to hide. Um, I'm not taking out a disproportionate share. Um, nor do I care to. If your goal is to make a positive difference in the lives of others, which is what mine is.

Chris Earley (35:43)

Yeah.

David Craig (35:43)

It's not to make a certain amount of money,

Chris Earley (35:45)

right?

David Craig (35:45)

Um, and every day I get up, I have a new chance to make a difference in somebody's life.

Chris Earley (35:50)

Yes.

David Craig (35:50)

Maybe somebody today will listen to a podcast and say, "Hey, I learned something."

Chris Earley (35:53)

Totally.

David Craig (35:54)

And I've accomplished then what I set out to do today. And so, as a result of that, it's a different mindset. And so, I'm again, it's an abundance thing. I'm not afraid to share. And so we started off with three partners. We were equal. When I started off, I had my one of my lawyers came to me, a business lawyer said, "You don't have to be equal." I said, "I want to be equal because the reality is I don't want anybody to feel like um that they got a unfair shake in the very beginning." And then over time I came up with a formula which is basically off of John Morgan's book um on how to value the business. So he talks about how he would what he pays for a firm. And so I used that calculation roughly um and said okay we're going to figure out here's how we're going to sell the firm to each other. And I use that formula so it's always the same. And then as one of my partners as we start to slow up or we want to I I doubt that I slow up but but my one of you know some people do one of my partners right now wants to spend more time doing other things. So he started selling his stock based upon this formula and every year he knows how much he's going to get. He can figure out how much he's going to get. He decides how much he's going to sell. And then my younger attorneys have been buying in. So I have three junior attorneys. Um, always my associates, I give them 50% of any case they bring in the door. So 50% of any case so they're not tempted to leave because they know I'm going to bankroll their case. I'm going to

Chris Earley (37:29)

and why not, right?

David Craig (37:31)

They get the big the bigger the case is, the more likely people are to leave. But not if they're going to get 50%. And I'm going to bankroll it.

Chris Earley (37:39)

Yeah, that's right.

David Craig (37:39)

Um, and they know that we're going to get good value out of it because we're a good firm. So, um, the reality is that I I treat people fairly. Um, I'm open and as a result, I've been very fortunate, very blessed, and people stick with me. Uh, even staff. I've got paralegals that have been with me forever. Um, and we treat everybody. Uh, we try to treat everybody fairly.

Chris Earley (38:01)

People are sticking around, huh?

David Craig (38:02)

They stick around, but you know, and I I hold people accountable,

Chris Earley (38:05)

of course.

David Craig (38:05)

I mean, we we push hard and so there's different roles for different people and different people get, you know, you go through different phases of your life. So maybe you have little kids and you're coaching, so you're not as you're not as valuable to me today, uh, as you might have been when you didn't have kids coaching, but that doesn't mean you're not valuable. And so, but you you look at that and you try to judge that, change it as you go, and then your kids are grown. My, you know, I have six grandkids.

Chris Earley (38:33)

Oh, wonderful.

David Craig (38:34)

I have three three kids. Um, two of them are lawyers in my firm.

Chris Earley (38:38)

Oh my god.

David Craig (38:38)

And one of them is my professional videographer. Does all my videos.

Chris Earley (38:42)

That's so cool.

David Craig (38:43)

So, I work every day with my kids.

Chris Earley (38:45)

That's really cool.

David Craig (38:46)

So, no. But I do think if you're looking for money and your goal is money, um, and you're trying to get as much money out of everything you can get, then you're going to have a high turnover rate. You're not going to have people stick with you. you can make a lot of money, but and if that's your goal, so be it. My goal was to make a difference in people's life, but that's also my clients. That's also people in the community I practice in. But it's also my employees. I love seeing these people grow, learn new things, expand. I put them in different positions. They work their way up into management. And people see that and they say, "Okay, she started off um or this guy started off as a legal assistant. now he runs the rapid response team that she started off as a paralegal uh running files now she's office manager." You have to be willing to let people grow and but I think that's the best way to keep people is look at them care about what helps them succeed and then work really hard at that.

Chris Earley (39:46)

I love that I was in a mastermind earlier this week in Phoenix and someone said there was a statistic most people don't leave jobs due to money it's because of a bad boss right and So that's echoing my ears right now. So you really you get on their level. You're not like superior. Um and frankly to be brutally honest, like how old are you?

David Craig (40:06)

I'm 66.

Chris Earley (40:07)

So you got up on stage 66. You have so much energy, man. I'm telling you, like you have more energy than most like 26-year-old lawyers. And like David is 66 getting so much stuff done. People are staying with him. He's he's a constant you're you're a constant learner. That's why I want to have you on the show is like you're just like always, you know, wanting more, but you're not a taker. You're a giver and that's why you're so successful. I mean that's part of the part of the stew. I would imagine it's working well, right?

David Craig (40:32)

Yeah. I mean, and you every year you look at and say, "What can I do differently?"

Chris Earley (40:36)

Yeah.

David Craig (40:36)

So, for example, right on Mondays, we started having somebody cook breakfast for us.

Chris Earley (40:40)

That's cool.

David Craig (40:41)

Every Monday for years. Now, you walk in the building and you smell bacon and you smell I mean is Mondays aren't you don't dread coming to work on Monday, right?

Chris Earley (40:50)

I love it.

David Craig (40:50)

And then Thursdays we cook lunch. So, every Thursday we have lunch. cook. We have a a chef here. They cook every Thursday. Every Monday they cook breakfast.

Chris Earley (41:02)

It doesn't cost you that much money.

David Craig (41:04)

No, but it shows you that it care. You care. And some one of my employees said, "Hey, wait a minute. I read you don't get a tax write off for that." I said, "I don't do it for a tax write off. I do it because I care about you guys."

Chris Earley (41:18)

You're you're a different dude in a lot of good ways.

David Craig (41:21)

So, if you care about people and you're constantly looking and saying, "How do I make their lives better?" You know what? They work really hard then to make your clients lives better.

Chris Earley (41:30)

Yeah. Yeah.

David Craig (41:30)

You know, and I and I and I do I genuinely care about the people I have um that have been with me for for a long time.

Chris Earley (41:38)

I guess I guess the only thing bad about working your firm is all the extra calories people with the bacon.

David Craig (41:42)

People do you they they joke about gaining 15 pounds within the first three months.

Chris Earley (41:47)

You're fatting everybody up. I love it. No, that's really cool. But like the detail of the smell of bacon on a Monday morning. I don't, you know, I'm kind of like, you know, push myself into work. I'm like, "Oh, wait." Like this is a this is a nice place. Like I'm welcome here. I like this feeling. You know,

David Craig (42:01)

this Monday I knew we had we're going to have French toast. So I was excited Sunday night. I was like, "Oh my god, she makes wonderful."

Chris Earley (42:08)

I never heard I've talked to a lot of people. I never heard anything like that. All right. I I want to be respectful of your time, but I want to ask you before you wrap up. What is your day-to-day? Are you just handling like a few ca few of the bigger cases? Like what is your what are you doing each day generally at this point?

David Craig (42:22)

So from 9:00 to 10:00 every morning my door is open to anybody. So nobody I have no appointments. Uh so 9 to 10 my staff, any paralegal, any lawyer can come to my office and talk to me. Um after that I'm booked um straight through the day. Um I I usually work till 8:00 at night, maybe later.

Chris Earley (42:42)

Really?

David Craig (42:42)

I work six days a week. come here on Saturdays and um and so I'm working on files. Um usually they're really big files, but on the other hand, when somebody asked me, one of my attorneys asked me to help her try a case, it was a small or medium medium sized case. I was happy I'm I'm happy to do that as well. So I balance my time. I give guidance. I meet with uh file managers. I I I manage the marketing. Uh I manage the firm. Um so I I check the KPIs. um I check the um the marketing numbers, those type of things, but then I work files, right? You know, I last year I worked on a case that, you know, resulted in a 25.25 uh settlement right before trial. And so that was that took up a big chunk of my time.

Chris Earley (43:32)

Yeah.

David Craig (43:32)

Um and so those kind of cases, the bigger cases, you know, take a lot of time. Um, but a lot now as I'm working with other attorneys. I believe that the future is trial lawyers. Um, I think it's, you know, AI is going to hurt a lot of folks. So, I'm encouraging all my lawyers to go to training, become better trial lawyers every, you know, what are you doing this year to be a better trial lawyer. Uh, so I'm managing that, trying to monitor that. So, my days are pretty pretty busy.

Chris Earley (44:00)

I can imagine you're

David Craig (44:02)

But they're fun.

Chris Earley (44:03)

Yeah. You're you're you're not letting up. I mean, a lot of guys, you know, playing golf and they're kind of, you know, slowing it down. You're like ramping it up.

David Craig (44:11)

And I don't think there's anything wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong.

Chris Earley (44:14)

Of course not.

David Craig (44:14)

My partner B.J. Kelley

Chris Earley (44:16)

Yeah.

David Craig (44:17)

He wants to travel more.

Chris Earley (44:17)

Yeah.

David Craig (44:18)

He wants to go do that. And that's I said you I said, "I got your back. You go do that. You can still stay down, you know, get down to 10% of ownership of the firm. Go run around, enjoy the fact that you helped me build this place, but go do what you want to do."

Chris Earley (44:32)

Yeah.

David Craig (44:32)

For me, I have young lawyers here who I want to see become the best trial lawyers in the country. I have clients who I care very much about.

Chris Earley (44:41)

Yeah.

David Craig (44:42)

I have people in the community I care very much about. And so I enjoy making a difference, teaching, educating, spending time. So even if I do less trial work, I will always be involved because I enjoy it.

Chris Earley (44:55)

I love it. This is fascinating and it's very inspiring, too. I'm really I'm really glad you came on the show. Let me ask you let me ask you this though today. What's your What's your biggest challenge? You've had a lot of success. What's your biggest challenge right now? Do you feel like

David Craig (45:08)

I I don't I don't I mean I Everything's a I mean there's a lot of challenges. I I look at them as they're exciting. So the my favorite cases are the bad cases that have challenges because those are the ones that not everybody can win. And so if you can win those, which I've won a fair amount of those, that's so much more rewarding than beating a bad lawyer on a great case. And so the more you throw at me, I'm kind of warped. The more I enjoy it. And so they talk about AI, they talk about they talk about all these huge firms coming in and my business is I I have more business than I've ever had.

Chris Earley (45:47)

Yeah.

David Craig (45:47)

I have more success than I've ever had despite all the competition, despite AI, despite all this stuff be because I look at it as it's a fun challenge.

Chris Earley (45:57)

Yeah.

David Craig (45:58)

And what am I going to do next year that I'm not doing this year? And I I just hired a a a computer programmer from a Fortune 500 company this past year in 20 and why why would I do that? It's not a income producing, but that person is developing software with me. That person's doing things. I've got a new map project that nobody has. And so I love that. Yeah. So bring on the more competition. Bring on all this stuff.

Chris Earley (46:30)

You are.

David Craig (46:31)

I love that.

Chris Earley (46:33)

Well, honestly, you've built a moat around your firm. That's what I'm hearing, right? A moat, right? because you've done it the right way for the right reasons for so long that there's this large moat that you've you've created. So, and and that's that's great in this period of a lot of a lot of change. David, I appreciate you. Very inspiring, very fascinating guy you are. How can people get in touch with you? How can they refer you a case? How can they have a conversation with you?

David Craig (46:55)

Just look us up. Uh ckflaw.com is our website. Craig, Kelley & Faultless. Uh you can reach out to uh to us on the website. Um and um uh Suzanne in my office. I'm always happy to speak with anybody. Um I'm happy just to share. My way of not is not the right way. It's just my way. But I'm so happy to share with anybody. Law students come over and they they come visit with me. I love that. But anything I can do anytime I can talk to you, I'm happy to do that.

Chris Earley (47:25)

Well, thank you so much, Dave. Really appreciate you.

David Craig (47:27)

Thanks, Chris.

Chris Earley (47:28)

Thank you, David. All right, that's it for this episode of the Earley Show. Be sure to check out more episodes of our show on Spotify, Apple Podcast, and the Answering Legal YouTube channel.