50% Referral Split? No Way. How Seth Bader Built and Scaled His Firm

Welcome to episode 63 of The Earley Show, hosted by personal injury attorney Christopher Earley! For this conversation, Chris is joined by Seth Bader, founder of Bader Law in Atlanta, Georgia.

Check out the episode below. You can also enjoy it on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Seth and Chris trace the path from $5,000 in the bank and a website that never produced a single injured caller to a firm of roughly 150 team members: the Spanish-language web content that landed his first two referral partners, the phone call that ended when a partner's referral fee crept from 25% to 50%, and the PILMA mastermind where he went from spending $5,000 a month on marketing to $300,000–$400,000. He also explains why your influence as a founder shrinks past 20 to 25 people, how he failed to self-implement EOS in 2014 before committing to it a decade later, and why the biggest mistake growing firms make is moving too fast.

About our guest:

Seth Bader is the founder of Bader Law in Atlanta, Georgia, a personal injury and workers' compensation firm he started in 2008 with about $5,000 in the bank. Today the firm has roughly 150 team members, including about 20 lawyers and 60 to 75 virtual team members around the world, along with more than 3,500 Google reviews. Born and raised in Miami, Seth earned his law degree at Florida State and spent 2003 to 2008 as an insurance defense attorney in Atlanta before going out on his own. He runs the firm on EOS (the Entrepreneurial Operating System) and is a regular at legal industry conferences and masterminds.

Connect with Seth:

Visit Seth's firm website

Email Seth at [email protected]

Find Seth on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook

Topics covered

-Growing up in Miami with a self-made father who became a neurologist

-Struggling in school until an 11th-grade diagnosis gave him a new path

-Insurance defense in Atlanta, "a closed file is a good file" and being told to stay in his lane

-Seeing injured people underserved by plaintiff firms, and care as a unique value proposition

-Starting a firm in 2008 with $5,000 and a dream

-Handling overflow cases in Conyers, Georgia while building his own website before dawn

-The website that never produced a single client call — but landed two referral partners through its Spanish content

-Referral-fee creep from 25% to 50%, and why you need to know your margins

-Diversifying marketing channels so one source can't sink you

-2013: Ben Glass, Great Legal Marketing, Ken Hardison and PILMA

-Going from $5,000 to $300,000–$400,000 a month in marketing — and outgrowing the mastermind room

-Learning from the people coming up behind you, not just those who came before

-Scaling to roughly 150 team members, including 60 to 75 virtual staff worldwide

-Why a founder's influence shrinks past 20 to 25 people, and the need to build other leaders

-SOPs, KPIs and systems that don't rely on pure talent

-Trying to self-implement EOS in 2014, skipping the $20,000 Implementer, and finally installing it in late 2023

-Get a Grip and keeping the core functions simple

-Competing with private equity, non-lawyer ownership, lead-generation companies and AI

-Resilience as a superpower

-Vision, impact and why money isn't the motivation

-The biggest mistake: moving too fast on hiring, firing, marketing and systems

-Think and Grow Rich and an abundance mindset

People and resources mentioned

-Seth Bader — Bader Law — baderlaw.com

-Shepherd Center — rehabilitation hospital in Atlanta

-Ben Glass — Great Legal Marketing

-Ken Hardison — PILMMA

-PILMA — Personal Injury Lawyers Marketing & Management Association

-John Morgan — Morgan & Morgan

-Mickey Love — previous Earley Show guest

-Gino Wickman — EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System); Traction

-Get a Grip — Gino Wickman and Mike Paton

-Napoleon Hill — Think and Grow Rich

-practicetipoftheweek.com — Chris Earley's free weekly email list for lawyers

Learn more about Chris' practice, the Earley Law Group, here!

Check out Chris' book "Scaling The Wall" here!

The Earley Show is a part of the Answering Legal Podcast Network.

Interested in learning more about Answering Legal? Book an appointment to speak with us here!

You can also give us a call at 631-866-0801.

Episode Transcript:

Announcer (00:00)

The Earley Show is brought to you by our friends at Answering Legal. For more than a decade, attorneys have trusted Answering Legal's 24/7 virtual receptionist service to keep their phones covered and their clients cared for. Now, they're raising the bar with an AI powered intake chatbot, live translation services in over 180 languages, and 76 seamless tech integrations. Answering Legal's goal: make running a law practice simpler while helping you capture every new client opportunity. And don't worry, the receptionist team is still the best in the business at turning first-time callers into loyal clients. Find out what's possible by visiting answeringlegal.com. You'll find a link to the site in the description of this episode. Now, let's get to the show.

Chris Earley (00:52)

Hello, welcome to another episode of The Earley Show sponsored by friends over at Answering Legal. I'm your host Chris Earley and on this show as you know we always bring you the very best and brightest in the legal industry. Today we have a special treat. We have Seth Bader from Bader Law down in Georgia. Seth has built up a big firm. He's a very successful lawyer entrepreneur and I see him frequently at conferences. He's always, you know, learning, always growing. And that's why I asked him to come on the show because he can share a ton of value. So ladies and gentlemen, make sure as always you sharpen those pencils. I'm sure there'll be plenty of writer downers on this episode of The Earley Show. Seth, welcome to the show, my friend.

Seth Bader (01:29)

Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me. I know we've been talking about doing this for a while and so I'm finally uh finally here and excited to be here with you.

Chris Earley (01:36)

Well, it's really good to see you. I know uh we were trying to get this going for a while, so I'm glad to connect with you. So, before we get into the firm, right, a lot of success. By the way, I'm going to ask you a question out of the gate. 3,500 Google reviews. That's freaking legit, man. So, I definitely want to ask you about that. That's really impressive. But before we get to today, could you take us back? Where'd you grow up? Mom and dad influences that kind of brought you to, you know, become the man you are today. Kind of how did it start?

Seth Bader (02:05)

Yeah, sure. It's a It's a pleasure. I'll take you back to 1976. I turned 50. Chris, I turned 50 in just two weeks. It's unbelievable.

Chris Earley (02:14)

Right behind you by six months. So, right there.

Seth Bader (02:16)

But, uh, but in 1976, born and raised in Miami, Florida, the son of, uh, great man who was born and raised in New York City in Brooklyn, grew up very, very poor. Uh, the son of immigrants, Jewish immigrants, didn't have a lot. Uh, his his father was a was a butcher. He was a self-made man who became a doctor. Just he's my role model, my hero. I mean, he's truly everything I aspire to be. Um, and then my mom, um, she grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, and they met in Miami. And, uh, yeah, I mean, they they taught me hard work. They taught me compassion. So, I mean, they really are the the the the role models for my entire life.

Chris Earley (02:59)

What kind of medicine did your dad practice?

Seth Bader (03:02)

He was a neurologist.

Chris Earley (03:03)

Wow. Really cool. So, sounds like uh education is important, right? You know, growing up, sounds like you probably learned a lot of a lot of good lessons. How did you end up getting to law school? What brought you there?

Seth Bader (03:17)

Well, u also a lot of hard work. I mean, I I have an interesting, you know, path. I I I was a relatively average student uh most of my childhood. Actually, average would be giving me too much credit. Um, you know, I kind of had some challenges um in school starting about third grade, just some challenges reading. Ultimately was diagnosed with ADD years later, but just really wasn't into school. Really again struggled with the different parts of school and uh 11th grade was again diagnosed with attention deficit disorder. Uh that kind of provided an explanation, provided uh a new a new path, some new opportunities, new resources, and uh really from that moment on I I kind of re-engaged um found the right resources to support me and um really focused on school, then went to law school, you know, and then I started my own business.

Chris Earley (04:12)

When did you start to get really serious about school?

Seth Bader (04:14)

Like I said, about 11th grade. I mean there was there was a period from about third grade until 11th grade where I was I don't know if I was fully disengaged but I certainly was not uh engaged you know I was really I played sports growing up that that's really where my attention and energy went. Um and then again 11th grade really dialed back in.

Chris Earley (04:34)

And so it sounds like that was sort of a pivot, right? Like you kind of took a took a turn, right? A young so 17 years old. And just as an aside, you know, I'll be 50 in 6 months. Seth, I was speaking in front of some law lawyers here in Massachusetts two days ago. And I said to the audience, I'm almost 50, so enjoy the ride. It goes fast. Isn't it crazy how quickly this freaking stuff goes, man? The years. It's nuts.

Seth Bader (04:58)

It is. It's remarkable. I mean, I was uh Yeah, it goes really really fast. Certainly once you once you have kids and once you own a business, I things really start to accelerate.

Chris Earley (05:08)

Oh, yeah. It's crazy.

Seth Bader (05:10)

You definitely have to definitely have to enjoy the journey, the ups, the downs, the in-betweens. But I would have it no other way, tell the truth.

Chris Earley (05:18)

Same. Same. All right. So, you're you're really focusing on school. You obviously get into law school. You continue to work hard. You get out of law school. Where did you land after law school?

Seth Bader (05:30)

So I after law school I I moved to Atlanta. Um I went to law school Florida State and then moved to Atlanta which is my mom's hometown. Um and you know started out here as an insurance defense attorney.

Chris Earley (05:42)

Okay. How'd you like that or not like that?

Seth Bader (05:47)

I hated it. It was a miser it was it was a miserable experience for so many reasons. But it was it was a foundational experience that you know I think set me up for you know owning my own practice. But it was it really did not align with my values. It didn't align with the impact that I wanted to make in the world. And frankly the the the people that I worked with didn't align with my work ethic. Uh it was really to me it felt uh like we were just checking the box billing hours and um I thought that the work overall was mediocre. I mean, it really there was not really a I'm I'm not saying that there were no attorneys that did uh, you know, didn't focus on doing high quality work, but I I thought that the it was more about how how fast could you get through the case and still bill your time um, and then close the file. As as one of my bosses and mentors said at the time, a closed file is a good file. And anything you could do to just get it to close or cover your ass was good enough. And so, there was no there was no reward for good quality work, right? If I billed I think if I billed like an extra couple I don't know hundreds of hours, dozens of hours, I don't even remember at this point. But think if I you know if you billed a lot more, you might have gotten $2,000 bonus at the end of the year. The the payoff wasn't there. The uh you know the kind of the just inherently just wasn't a very valuable experience. I just didn't enjoy it.

Chris Earley (07:14)

You try cases?

Seth Bader (07:18)

Um, we tried some cases. I mean, you settle most whether you're on the defense side or the plaintiff side, you're settling most of the cases.

Chris Earley (07:24)

Yeah.

Seth Bader (07:24)

But it was a lot of lot of paperwork. It it just wasn't a great exper I mean, it just again didn't feel it just didn't sit well with me what I wanted to do with my life.

Chris Earley (07:33)

Did it light you up or fulfill you? It sounds like to me—

Seth Bader (07:36)

It it was not fulfilling. And and then I had like an entrepreneurial drive and that was very very stifled. I would go to my bosses and say, "Look, I've built a relationship with this adjuster and that, you know, can you give me some resources so that I can try to generate business," and here I was my second year in practice and they're like, "Look, I need you to just stay in your lane, do your job."

Chris Earley (07:57)

Yeah.

Seth Bader (07:59)

Which I I mean, I understand as now as a business owner, you you want your your employees to kind of like, you know, fulfill their roles and responsibilities. They didn't they didn't hire me to to be an entrepreneur and a rainmaker, but that's what I wanted to do and that wasn't of interest to them.

Chris Earley (08:16)

Well, where did you end up after that? Where'd you go after that job?

Seth Bader (08:19)

Well, so I had a couple jobs uh before I started my practice. Then in 2008, I I took that leap of faith and started my practice.

Chris Earley (08:28)

So when before you started your practice, were you were you having coffee dates, networking, were you generating business or were you just behind the desk all day? For the most part?

Seth Bader (08:36)

From 2003 to 2008, I did insurance defense work. So I was behind a desk as you said. And during that time, I didn't really do a lot to like network and set myself up for uh you know, opening my own practice. I did find plaintiff attorneys, claimants attorneys that that were open and willing to share ideas, but I wouldn't say that I like networked effectively so that I could start out with cases like coming in the door. I did dream a lot. I did dream a lot. I used to drive around Atlanta, think about where I could put my office—

Chris Earley (09:08)

Really?

Seth Bader (09:09)

—what it would be like, how I would market the firm, what I would do. But I mean I was so busy trying to meet my billable hour expectation. Didn't really have a lot of time for for anything else.

Chris Earley (09:19)

Yeah. Your time there was obviously limited because you had other aspirations in life. So So I just want to share that you know I kind of did the same thing. I did work insurance defense but for the first part of my career I wasn't networking enough. So encourage the audience, right, like develop those relationships, go have coffee, start in law school. Actually I wish uh I kind of did that more but definitely definitely doing it heavily now. So, what led you to obviously you're an entrepreneur at heart, right? That's your spirit. Like, what what led you to sort of like pull the trigger and start a practice?

Seth Bader (09:50)

As an insurance defense attorney, I saw a lot of opportunity. I saw I saw a lot of people that were underrepresented and underserved. Um, really good, hardworking, you know, people that were were really tragically injured and needed help. And uh I thought that so many of the the attorneys that represented them for various reasons really weren't serving them properly. Whether they were moving the cases too fast just to make a quick buck, whether they just didn't have the skill set, I just knew that they were leaving a lot of money, a lot of opportunity on the table. So for for one, I I knew there was a huge opportunity in a space in the market for somebody who actually cared, which you know, I later realized is a unique value proposition. Like I think people don't appreciate the the value of care uh and and the importance of it. And and then like I said just doing the insurance defense work it just was a miserable for me it was a miserable experience where I was totally misaligned with the practice with the people and and so for me it just it it seemed like a very natural thing to do and I wasn't particularly good at following the rules, you know.

Chris Earley (11:01)

Same.

Seth Bader (11:01)

I wasn't I wasn't a particularly good employee. I mean, I did good work. They told me that I, you know, doing high quality work. Um, but I was going to do it my way.

Chris Earley (11:11)

Yeah.

Seth Bader (11:11)

And and you know, the other thing is that that most of the places I worked really were not interested, not not only were they not interested in my desire to like build something and and be an entrepreneur, but they really weren't interested in hearing my ideas or anybody's ideas. Like this is how we do business. Shut up. Do your work. Um, fact the fact that we were not leveraging technology the right way, the fact that nobody was entering data in the case management system, the fact that we weren't really doing great quality work. Like none of that seemed to matter. And so when I pushed to to improve things, I I really became a nuisance. And so like for me, it just I got to the point where I said, "Well, this isn't working. It hasn't worked at a few firms. So, let me go do my own thing, make a difference, make more money, and do it my way."

Chris Earley (12:01)

Were you scared about starting your own practice?

Seth Bader (12:03)

Of course. I mean, you know, there's there's a lot of fear, a lot of uncertainty, you know, because you you don't really have much to fall back on unless you're really really unless you're lucky. I mean, I started with about $5,000 in the bank and a dream. That's what I had. Um, but you know, at some point at some point I remember reading through a magazine, I don't know what it was, and there was some quote about, you know, the biggest regret you'll ever have is is is not trying. I think that that was the moment I just said, you know what, I got— I say I It's not that I don't have anything to lose, but if if I don't if I don't try this, then I will regret it later. And thankfully, I did I did I did take that leap of faith.

Chris Earley (12:42)

Well, that's what this podcast is all about, Seth. It's not just lawyers business, but just like freaking going for it, having a big life and just going for yours and just living with the consequence is just going for it. So, that's interesting. You have 5,000 bucks. It's not going to do a lot. How did you leverage that? How'd you start getting business? How'd you get going? Because obviously a lot's changed since then, but like what did you do to get going? Initially.

Seth Bader (13:04)

Everybody's path is a little bit different and you just you got to find a way. You got to be scrappy. Um, I did a couple things. One is I I went to some friends and and mentors that I'd met through the years and I was able to get, you know, some cases, uh, some referrals. Um, that in and of itself was not enough. I had another friend who had a really thriving practice in Conyers, Georgia at the time. Um, and he had he was just swimming in in work and so he needed help. And so I was able to go out there and I it wasn't like an official of counsel relationship, but I handled cases for him. So I would wake up, I would uh try to I was building my own website.

Chris Earley (13:47)

Oh, wow.

Seth Bader (13:47)

All right. Yeah. And I'm not I'm not a tech person, but I I this is this is the way you're going to get business. You build a website, you put a lot of content on, right? And and consumers will find you, you know, people that need you. And so I did that from like about 4:30 to about 7 a.m. Then I would get in my car and drive to Conyers, represent people all day, then come home and work on the website. Um, and then in the meantime, I was getting a referral here or a referral there. What's really interesting is that I never got a single case. Not one, not one injured person ever called me from that website. However, um two law firms called me and it took a while before they did. It was about a year, year and a half into my practice. Well, one of them called um out of the blue and uh you know got really excited and asked me if I could take on Spanish cases that he he found some Spanish content on the website and I said yes. And and so and at the time this was at the time this was about a year after I started my business. Um, and at that point I was no longer doing the work in Conyers for that other attorney and I had about at the time I had about 25 cases that that I kind of tech- took with me with that lawyer's permission. I continued to work on them and then out of nowhere I got a call. I think it was May of 2009 and this lawyer called and and said, "Look, I need somebody who can handle Spanish cases. Do you handle them?" I said, "Yes." He said he's got 25 cases that are going to come in a fax machine. I feel like that's the last physical fax that I ever received in my life because everything's electronic after that. And that was kind of the really the the beginning. I mean, like I didn't really know at the time how I was going to generate business. I was starting to make money on those cases that I still had. That was exciting. But then when those cases are settled, then you realize, wait a second, now what am I going to do? You know, and then this lawyer just it was very fortuitous, you know, he called and over the next maybe year and a half to two years, he referred a lot a lot of cases and that really got got kind of helped set the foundation. And then when that relationship ended, which happens whether it's referrals, whether it's pay-per-click marketing, whether it's your brand, there comes a point where some of the marketing channels and some of the marketing strategies don't work. So, it's really important you have other things going in the pipeline uh because you just don't know when certain marketing channels are gonna going to fail you. I I actually didn't at the time. Uh I was really relying on this one lawyer, this one firm who did a lot of marketing. And then one day he called and he said, "Seth, you know, I'm sorry, like you got to pay me more." Like that point 25% became 33, 33 became 40. Then he wanted 50% and I and I told him I don't— I don't know if I can use you know inappropriate language here but I said, oh I said, you know, "Go [expletive] yourself." I said, "You go you go [expletive] yourself. I'm not paying you 50%." And he told me to go [expletive] myself.

Chris Earley (16:58)

Wow.

Seth Bader (16:58)

And then then he hung up the phone and I said, "Oh [expletive], I'm [expletive]." [Expletive] because he was he was the only source of business I had.

Chris Earley (17:06)

Oh man.

Seth Bader (17:07)

You know, now fortunately, I had a few hundred cases at the time and and you I can't make this up, but like a week later, I got a call from another attorney who also found found my Spanish content on the website and said, "Hey, I've got a really seriously injured client at the Shepherd Center." The Shepherd Center is a world-renowned rehab hospital here in Atlanta, traumatic brain injury, uh, spinal cord injuries, and you know, there I was in the Shepherd Center signing up a new client who had been run over.

Chris Earley (17:36)

No.

Seth Bader (17:36)

And then over the next year to two years, that lawyer referred me cases. And so, you know, everybody has a different story, a different journey, but that's actually how it worked for me. I I found two very very solid or two very solid referral partners found me.

Chris Earley (17:52)

Right. Right.

Seth Bader (17:53)

And started cases, you know, and and then of course during that time, I was thinking things are going really well, but if this guy ever stops, I'm like, what am I going to do? And that was sort of when I I I I started to to to get on the conference scene, masterminds, meeting lots of people around the country and learning how they were doing it.

Chris Earley (18:14)

What year is that now? What year we—

Seth Bader (18:17)

That was 2013.

Chris Earley (18:18)

Okay. That was Okay. So, I love the kind of FU discussion, you know, because it's like you kind of had enough. Us lawyers, you got to know our numbers. You're If you're doing 50%, you may be losing money actually on the deal. So you got to be crazy careful on your on your margins here. Could be a bad situation. But I hear two I wrote down two things. It sounds like you could see digital was important. You you focus on the website. This is 2008. And so I was starting up same time as you, a couple years before. I started my practice. I started 2005. But I knew digital blogging was like the hot thing. But you saw— you saw the priority of you got to get a website that gave you literally some rec some some recognition, visibility. But the Spanish speaking things, I did that too. I started to get Spanish speaking clients because I could have a conversation with someone in Spanish. So I had a little bit of that, you know, street cred. Anyway, those two things, the website blogging and the second part Spanish clients really Spanish clients really kind of helped me out. So I resonate with with what you said. Now you must have been scared shitless when that guy cut you off or actually you you extricate yourself in the situation, the 50% thing, but you did the right thing, right? And then quickly you realized you had new relationships and then you start kind of masterminding, you know, getting into these groups. What was your next level of growth, right? Because you kind of you found momentum. Where were you at that stage in 2013?

Seth Bader (19:42)

So look, in 2013, I don't remember exactly what my numbers were, but I was was probably doing between two and three million in revenue, right? So five years into the practice, um about two to three million in revenue. I'm not sure not sure what my margin was, but I was very concerned that I I was relying on essentially one referral partner, the the attorney that was referring me business, you know. I met with him and he was he was kind enough to share some of how he was learning. He had joined Ben Glass's group and and then I started doing some research on on on on a great I think it's called Great Legal Marketing. Um, and then from there that I don't know, I guess this was the the algorithm in 2013. You know, I was looking that up and then somehow Ken Hardison and PILMA—

Chris Earley (20:34)

Yes.

Seth Bader (20:34)

You know, showed up in my feed.

Chris Earley (20:34)

Yes.

Seth Bader (20:35)

Next thing I know, I'm in Chicago at a at an event for PILMA. It was an amazing event. Just eye-opening um event. I I joined a mastermind. I was in a room with 15 other firms from around the country. The secrets had been revealed. You know, like nobody that I talked to in Atlanta either knew or was willing to to share anything, which is really disappointing part of this industry is nobody but very few people are willing uh locally to to share because they're afraid they're going to you're going to take their secrets and and beat them. And there's just not only is there enough to go around for everybody, but it's it's so much harder. I mean, if I know I know you've had John Morgan on. If John Morgan opened his playbook, which to a certain extent I think he has, like it ain't going to matter. It ain't going to matter. Like we just, you know, you don't have the resources. You don't have the talent. And so it's really I think it's better and more rewarding to just share. You can learn. You can actually learn a lot from from everybody. So in any event, I ended up uh where was I? I was in a mastermind and and these these people were so so kind and so generous in in the information that they were sharing and I remember being in the room and and hearing some of their numbers and they were staggering. I mean at the time I think I was spending maybe 5,000 a month on marketing and you know there were people in the room that were talking about 50,000 a month and 100,000 a month and I said, "Oh my, this is how do you do it?"

Chris Earley (21:59)

Right?

Seth Bader (21:59)

And I and and and and I I mean this like it feels like time went so fast and then a few years later I was in the same room spending 300,000 a month and 400,000 a month.

Chris Earley (22:12)

Awesome.

Seth Bader (22:13)

Frankly I had outgrown the room, which was—

Chris Earley (22:16)

Wow. Yeah.

Seth Bader (22:17)

—which was which was frustrating because I feel like the real the real opportunity, the real knowledge comes from being in the room and at the table with people that have have done more than you, have learned more than you, have made more mistakes than you. So, I'm always looking for that next level uh and and you know, so that I can learn u and then and then grow.

[MID-ROLL AD]

Chris Earley (22:37)

Hey everyone, it's Chris. If you ever have a personal injury case here in Massachusetts that you can't take on or just want to refer out to a trusted firm, my team and I would love to work with you. Since 2004, I've only practiced personal injury law. My team and I pride ourselves on handling referrals with transparency, good communication, and care for your client. And if you're not already getting it, head on over to practicetipoftheweek.com. practicetipoftheweek.com to join my free email list. It goes out to hundreds and hundreds of lawyers each and every week with actionable marketing and practicing tips. Thanks for listening. Look forward to collaborating with you.

Chris Earley (23:17)

I love that. Yeah, I see you. I see you at conferences quite a bit. Um, so I know you're a guy, like I said earlier, getting after it, learning. You know, you talked about some people, Ben Glass, I've said this on this podcast hundred times, he changed my career. Like I literally was like, "Oh, I get it now. Let's think differently." Out of our provincial narrow-minded local, right, way of thinking. You you got you get out there and you you start to learn. Ken Hardison. I was in his mastermind. Fantastic guy. Fantastic experience. Now work with Mickey Love, right? Um who I'm sure you know, right? Just these people have been there, done that, and like you have to get into these rooms. And listening, I was just taking notes what you were saying. I think we hear this all the time. Be the dumbest guy in the room, right? Sounds like you were the first room, but then you were the smartest guy in the room. So, it's time to level up, right? Because you're not getting as much anymore. So, I encourage the audience when you're in a room, there's a time and a place to leave that room, right? And to kind of level out of there. How do you feel about that?

Seth Bader (24:14)

Agree. I mean, you just got to look it's I mean, you can always learn from those same people and and I actually think there's a lot to learn from people that have done it particularly um and and I probably need to do better and and have needed to do better learning from you know the people it's hard it's it's odd to say like I'm the old guy now but at 50 I kind of am. You know what I mean?

Chris Earley (24:37)

Thank you, man. I'm with you.

Seth Bader (24:38)

Just as there's value in learning from mentors and people who have been there and done that, there's probably as much or more value in learning from people that are, you know, on the come-up, so to speak, that really looking at things differently the way that we were looking at things differently when, you know, when we were when we started. I mean, in 2008 when I started, I thought I was so cool because I was working from home. You know, I had my Apple computer. I was out by the pool. I was posting on Facebook. You know, "Tough day at the office" as I was [unclear] a case, you know, and I think that, you know, I I leveraged technology. I didn't have a single piece of paper. I've never actually had uh, you know, a Redweld folder like that's never been part of the business. Um, we've been on a some kind of SaaS platform, you know, from day one. I think it's really important to learn from those that have been there before you and those that are coming after you so you can kind of stay hopefully stay ahead of them, which is is a challenge.

Chris Earley (25:34)

100%. And Seth, I honestly learn a ton, sometimes more from non-lawyers, right? Non-lawyer um coaches I find, right? You can learn so much outside the legal industry that you can bring into the legal industry. A ton has changed. How big is your firm today?

Seth Bader (25:50)

I don't know the exact numbers, but it's roughly 150 team members. There's approximately 75 in Atlanta and we have probably 60 to 75 that are virtual team members from around the world.

Chris Earley (26:06)

When did you start hiring um overseas?

Seth Bader (26:08)

I don't know the exact date, but it feels like it was either the end of 2023 or the beginning of 2024.

Chris Earley (26:16)

Yeah, the same. How many lawyers do you have?

Seth Bader (26:18)

I think it's roughly 20. And we we have a workers comp practice and a personal injury practice.

Chris Earley (26:22)

Super impressive, man. Super impressive growth. Obviously, you have different challenges today than you did when you had 5,000 bucks to start your practice. What are some big challenges at that level of scale that you're that you face?

Seth Bader (26:35)

Let me just say generally, I think when you're scaling, I think some of the challenges uh are around leadership. I think you don't realize as a as as a founder who's kind of doing everything you you don't realize that in order to scale like you your influence sort of diminishes as you have more people and so when we when we were small, five people, I had tremendous influence. 10 people I still did. 15 enough. 20 I started to get stretched thin and I couldn't really influence the team and lead everybody the way that I wanted. By 25 it was it it was impossible to really have the influence that I wanted and I didn't realize or appreciate the importance of not only being a strong leader myself but also building or hiring other leaders to to help lead and and support and mentor you know the team and also to so that was that was one thing is just leadership and the other one is just the importance of of of developing a system and and processes. I mean it's it sounds kind of corny to talk about standard operating procedures and you know key performance indicators but I think that once you if you're going to scale you really you you don't have a choice. You have to put those kinds of systems into place or it's just it's just not going to happen. Um it's hard. I mean and even that's true even if you had all A+ players. Obviously the more talent you have the easier it is but to really build something you you got to build something that doesn't rely just upon pure talent. That there has to be a great system. Then if you plug in the talent, well, you know, then then then you really then you've really found the full recipe.

Chris Earley (28:17)

100%. Are you running on EOS or something similar?

Seth Bader (28:20)

Yes. So, we we do operate off of the EOS, Entrepreneurial Operating System, from Gino Wickman. I first heard about that system in 2014. I was actually at a at a mastermind. A friend of mine from Seattle uh talked about it and when I read the book I thought, you know, again just like another eye-opener, like wow, this is this is now I get it. You got to have core values, right? You have to have a system for data, you have to have a hiring system, you have to have a documented vision. Like it it really it all started to connect. It it all made sense. At the time I guess EOS was still relatively new. I don't I think it might have been founded in like 2010 or 11. I'm not sure. But anyway, I I remember looking into it and and uh you know, there was an imp you could hire an Implementer that could help set it up for you. And I thought there's no way I'm just not spending $20,000. Like what a I I can't afford that. That's too much money, right? Um that was that was money that I should that was a bargain and I should have done it at the time. And instead I went off site that I tried to self-implement. Um, and we we never got it off the ground. And then it was not until really 2000 the end of 2023, the beginning of 24 that we we began really installing uh the system. And it's it's I mean it's it's not complicated. It's you know it's not it's not a complicated system to understand, but to execute it it's hard. I mean, just like anything, I mean, having the idea is easy, but e execution is really the hard part. And I think that's what's that's what separates those that are great and those that are average or not even average, right? If if you can execute and that that's that's hard. It takes time. It takes hard work. It takes planning. It takes leadership. It takes consistency. But you know, here we are about two and a half years into this new system and it's it's it's imperfect.

Chris Earley (30:24)

Sure.

Seth Bader (30:24)

Um, but it is far better than than what we had before, which was nothing. I mean, we really didn't have a system. It was it was sort of we were just adding different pieces to a puzzle. Um, it it was a little bit like, you know, you have a small house and then you then you add on a room and then you change you take the garage and make it into another room and then you you just kind of and that that's kind of how the business was built. It wasn't it really wasn't scaled properly. A big part of that is we didn't have a a a a deliberate intentional system and plan for growth and so it just everything got a little bit clunky. So, so we've had to, you know, over the last two years, we've gone through a transformation.

Chris Earley (31:04)

Yeah.

Seth Bader (31:04)

We've kind of like made some pretty significant radical changes really in how we operate, but it's a far more organized practice and business today. We're still continuing to work through it. And I guess the reality is it never ends because even when you get things better, then you you're presented with new, you know, new challenges. Even when you know if the marketing is working, if you're not really aware and prepared, then the operation will suffer and then then you fix the operation and then you know the marketing hasn't caught up to it. So it's a constant— I don't know if it's a cycle but there's this constant need to evolve—

Chris Earley (31:44)

Totally.

Seth Bader (31:44)

—to adapt and then of course with technology and there's just you know it's hard. Owning a business is definitely um a challenge. I don't care if it's a law firm or a restaurant. I mean, it's hard work and you just got to continue to learn, evolve, adapt.

Chris Earley (32:00)

I'm with you. And I'm reading I like to read before I go to bed. I'm reading uh Get a Grip, which really simplifies EOS and Traction. And so, for those that aren't familiar, it's a beautiful system of simplifying. You talk about the house getting like clunky and like kind of overgrown with rooms. EOS just simplifies to the core what are the basic functions. So I encourage the listener no matter what size your organization is, what what are your core functions, right? There's sales, intake, there's operations, finance, and that's really the the bread and butter, right? And just just keeping it simple. I did not keep it simple in my growth. It was getting the house is getting clunky, so encouraged. Get a Grip is is really good. So you just mentioned like staying current, right? Things are changing, you know, whiplash kind of speed. How are you staying current on all this crazy change in the industry?

Seth Bader (32:49)

You know, I'm I'm speaking to folks like you. I'm going to conferences. I'm, you know, as much as I can about um artificial intelligence. I'm um you know just I'm I'm leaning into my mentors and friends and around the country um that are that are leading in the industry and just trying to trying to stay current, doing my research. I mean it's uh the the industry today feels very very different than it did certainly when we started.

Chris Earley (33:15)

Oh god. Yeah. Totally.

Seth Bader (33:17)

Uh, I mean it honestly it feels different than it did six months ago. Like—

Chris Earley (33:21)

Absolutely. 100%.

Seth Bader (33:22)

It's it's a it's a wild time. I don't know. I don't know if it's fun or not, but it's a it's a wild experience right now for sure. I mean it's definitely you know definitely with with private equity, with uh the non you know non-lawyer ownership, with artificial intelligence, with the global workforce, um it's uh you know competing not only against other law firms that are backed by private equity but competing against really talented marketing agencies, third third party lead generation companies, and you know that doesn't account for the people that maybe are marketing in ways that they're not supposed to be. Like it's it's it's just an unbelievably competitive— competitive business. Yeah. And um—

Chris Earley (34:09)

It's crazy, man. It's so it's not for the faint of heart. I think that's why guys like you and me, you know, we do well because we stay we go to those masterminds, stay current. We geek out. We're thirsty, right? Like what's new, what's coming. I I want to always want to get better. Um and that's going to get you further than the average bear. You know, history has proven like you stay current.

Seth Bader (34:27)

Look, I I feel like I feel like it's going to be it's going to be really hard for anybody who's in this space, but if you if you're willing to learn and if you're willing to endure a lot of pain—

Chris Earley (34:41)

Yes.

Seth Bader (34:41)

—you know, I think I think, you know, it's one of those one of those superpowers is is resilience. I mean, if you're willing to to get beat up and just get back up and keep getting your ass kicked, I think you have a chance to win. Um because I think I don't think most are willing to or able to tolerate it. And I think sometimes I I don't realize how much resilience I have um until I look back and I'm like, "Holy [expletive], did I I really just go through that?" Like keep going. Like um because there there are definitely moments where you just it's not that you want to give up, but there are moments where you just wonder if you have the if you have the strength to to get through it. And I think the key is just to push through. And if you can do it, then you know what you get on the other side is very rewarding. Far more rewarding, I think, because you've endured so much pain.

Chris Earley (35:33)

I love that. So, you kind of took the words out of my mouth. I was going to ask you like what's so different about you to get to 150 team 150 team members. Not many lawyers do that. Is it all about resilience? Is that kind of what we're boiling this down to, just the ability to get up over and over again? Like, why are you How did you get to this point for that new guy, new gal looking to come up? Like what does it take?

Seth Bader (35:54)

I mean I think it starts with the vision. I mean I think I think you have if you like because if you don't have the vision, if you don't have the why, you don't have you just are not going to have the energy, right? I mean there are certain things that I have no interest in and consequent like outside of business and because of that I'm never going to pursue it. But if it's something you love, if it's something you you dream of, if you you know, then you're going to find the the energy to to make it happen. And I think for me um I I've had this desire to build something great um for a very long time. And it's not just me. I think for me it's not just about like building and honestly the money is not the motivation in any way, shape, or form. Money to me is is simply the reward uh for for making an impact. But for me, it's like I've always wanted to build something great. I've always wanted to build something um that that not only can impact our clients, but really to impact employees and and their them and their families. Like for me, uh it's incredibly rewarding to see how many people have come through the firm and have, you know, grown, some inside the firm, some outside the firm, some have started their own firms. And um you know it's a credit to them and and their willingness to to push and grow. You know, it feels good to know that you played a small part in their growth and so for me it's it's much bigger than is much bigger than just like making money and—

Chris Earley (37:20)

Totally.

Seth Bader (37:21)

—um having a great firm. Like it's really just making an impact and I think that's what keeps me going and and just and you know and I've had a vision and I know what it's going to look like and I think that fulfilling that vision is what keeps me going every day.

Chris Earley (37:35)

I love that. And we're talking about a lot here on this call is the challenge. I love I don't know if I'm like a sadist but I love the challenge. I like getting up and like getting after it because it's so freaking hard and that's and the and the money does come because you're not chasing that. You're chasing, you know, being challenged and and leveling up and you're going to be, yeah, rewarded for that like you said. Is there something I like to ask guests, is there something um you did that you know you kind of look back and say, you know, because I got a million and one mistakes that I made. Is there one mistake, like I wish I could do it over, that maybe our younger audience could benefit from that you experienced growing?

Seth Bader (38:10)

Is there one thing there? Many many things we should I'm going to write a I think you've just inspired me to write my my first book. You know, all the mistakes I made.

Chris Earley (38:19)

Go for it.

Seth Bader (38:20)

You know I'll give you like the just the high-level mistake and then maybe I'll drill down. I think the mistake is sometimes realizing not realizing that you don't have to move so fast.

Chris Earley (38:34)

Right.

Seth Bader (38:35)

Like there is especially when you're in this growth mode, you feel this intense pressure to act.

Chris Earley (38:42)

Yeah.

Seth Bader (38:43)

And do something. And you do you have to act. I mean, you have to be decisive. But I think sometimes you don't realize it, but you have the time to to slow down, to think, to develop a plan, and then to execute the plan. And I think this again, this shows up in so many ways. It shows up in hiring. It shows up in your marketing decisions. You know, you might, you know, fire somebody too fast. You might hire somebody too fast. You might change a system too fast. And I think sometimes, I think that happens a lot. And I think the important thing is just to slow down. I mean, if you literally when I look back, there was a time where if I could have talked to that version of myself, I would have said, "Listen, you need to take a week off, you need to step away and you need to process where you're at and you need to think through what you want before you take your next step," because if you don't, as and I didn't I just took that next step. I made that action, you know, I took that action and it wasn't the right one. Now, even if even if you step away, you you're still going to make mistakes, but at least at least you you you've been a bit more thoughtful in what you're trying to achieve and you've aligned your action with your vision. And and if you do that, I think that you have a better chance of success. Otherwise, you look back 6 months, a year, four, three, five years later, whatever it may be, and you're like, "How the [expletive] did I get into this position?" You don't realize that it was because there was a moment in time where you moved too fast. So, I think I don't know if that that answers your question.

Chris Earley (40:16)

No, I love that. I love it because I relate to that, man. It's important to slow down big time. We just are on fire. We're just so driven. It's hard. That's discipline. That's tough to do, man.

Seth Bader (40:25)

Well, and and the thing is you you you're afraid you're going to lose business. You're afraid like there's so much fear and and and the truth is you might if you slow down to to to set things up for a better future, you might actually lose something in the short term. In fact, I would argue you're going to lose something in the process, but you're going to gain so much more than and because the thing is if you go too fast, you're still going to lose some things in the process. And there's a greater likelihood that that that what you lose is substantially greater than if you had just slowed down and been deliberate. If you're slow down and you're deliberate, you can actually anticipate what you might lose in the short term, but also what you uh you can plan for and execute for what you're going to gain in the long term.

Chris Earley (41:09)

I like it. I'm with you, man. Wish you told me that 10 10 years ago. Uh um that's very valuable. Is there a book that you've read that kind of really because I know you know you like to geek out on this stuff and learn and you know always develop yourself, self-development, right? Is there a book that's had a big impact on you that you would, you know, suggest others read?

Seth Bader (41:32)

I mean this is is a classic is a classic. Um but I thought this was it was a game changer. In fact, I read it in 2013 and it's uh um Napoleon Hill, you know, Think and Grow Rich. I mean, it's uh you know, is it is just in fact, I think it was in the in the process of listening, I think, to like some some CD-ROMs. We were still listening to CD-ROMs of Ben Glass. And there was there was there I feel like he kept referencing Napoleon Hill maybe.

Chris Earley (42:00)

Yes.

Seth Bader (42:01)

And then I I just kept hearing this, said, "Let me check this out." My mind was just like blown. I said, I why why were they teaching me all this nonsense in school?

Chris Earley (42:11)

No, I know. I know.

Seth Bader (42:13)

And I just I think it just opens your mind to a world of possibility um and abundance. I think that is a a game-changing mindset that most people don't have. Um and so I think that was a that was probably the most impactful book.

Chris Earley (42:28)

I agree. And that I learned about that through Ben Glass. I'm like why do we keep talking about this guy Napoleon? Who's Napoleon? Right. And then now I'm at the stage I'd encourage the audience to read it. Read it more than once, right? Like read it multiple times actually throughout your career, right? Because there's always gems there. That's like kind of the OG um self-development book. Seth, I really appreciate. Thanks for the wisdom. Thanks for opening up and, you know, being vulnerable and just sharing all this stuff you've been through to get to today's, you know, success. How can people get in touch with you?

Seth Bader (42:54)

Sure. They can email me at [email protected] or you can go to baderlaw.com. Um, you can also find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, whatever. And and like I said earlier, a lot of folks in this industry don't like to exchange ideas. I'd love to. I'm I'm more than happy to to to exchange ideas with with anyone anytime. I mean, it's a it's a learning experience. It's very rewarding. I love to pay it forward. Um, there were mentors that helped me and and I hope I can help others. You know, if if if there's anything I can do, I'm more than happy to talk. And of course, you know, we'd love to find referral partners around the country. Uh we do get a lot of business around the country. We referred out and we hope to get business, you know, referred referred back our way.

Chris Earley (43:37)

I love it. Congrats on all all your success. Doing a great job. Thanks for coming on today, Seth. Really appreciate it.

Seth Bader (43:42)

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Chris Earley (43:43)

All right, that's it for this episode of The Earley Show. Be sure to check out more episodes of our show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and the Answering Legal YouTube channel.