The Hidden Referral Goldmines Your Law Firm Is Ignoring with Delisi Friday

Episode 74 of the "Everything Except The Law" podcast has arrived! This time we’re speaking with Delisi Friday, Founder and Owner of First Call Friday.

The Everything Except The Law podcast can be found on YouTube, Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

In this episode, Delisi and host Nick Werker discuss the value of integrating referral strategies into everyday practice, hidden referral sources lawyers should be exploring and ensuring staff are trained to recognize and act on referral opportunities. Delisi also shares a memorable encounter with Kim Kardashian and what she learned from the experience.

About our guest:

Delisi Friday has worked 20 years in the legal industry, and is in the top 1% of LinkedIn users in the legal industry, and ranked top 50 in legal in the United States. She has worked in four 8-figure businesses, and spent 7 years as a marketing director of an 8-figure boutique PI firm.

First Call Friday was founded by Delisi in 2025 to help attorneys and law firms grow their book of business through strategic, referral-based marketing. The company is about real relationship building among lawyers, referral partners, current clients, and former clients.

Learn more about First Call Friday here!

Connect with Delisi on LinkedIn here!

See the previous episode of “Everything Except The Law” here.

This podcast is produced and edited by Joe Galotti. You can reach Joe via email at [email protected].

Episode Transcript:

Nick Werker (Host): Hey everyone, welcome back to Answering Legal's Everything Except the Law Podcast. I am your host, Nick Werker. If this is your first time tuning in, this is the podcast where we share expert advice on all the parts of running a law firm that attorneys weren't exactly trained for back in law school. I never get tired of saying that. With me today, I have Delissi Friday, the founder and owner of First Call Friday. We have a lot to get into in this episode. But first, I want to have fun. I want to ask you a question and find out more about you. And we do like a pre-interview. We want to make sure like we know a little bit about you before we dive in. So, I have only been in and I will tell you the story one fight ever. But usually when people discuss their first fight or like a fight story, it includes like a sibling or maybe a classmate. But your story is a little different and I'm very eager to learn more about this. But who was your first fight with? 

Delisi Friday (Guest): I mean, my first one is obviously my sister.

Nick: Okay, that's fair.

Delisi: But um I think probably the most interesting one is Kim Kardashian. And I think I would like to describe it as maybe a not ideal interaction because I don't want to get into this legal battle with the Kardashians. However, I mean, is it really a legal battle if it's true? That's not liable or slander. So, fun fact, Kim Kardashian's been married a few times. Her first husband is a famous music producer named Damon Thomas. And after Kim and Damon divorced, I dated Damon. So that's how I met Kim Kardashian because after they divorced, Damon and I were out at a private membersonly event, something celebrities do and they don't want to be out and worried about people taking photos of them and sending things to the paparazzi. She was there with Paris Hilton at the time. They were best friends. So, this does date me. And I went up to them to go say hi cuz I thought if if she's giving me oal as as my family says, I should go say hi and introduce myself cuz I'm just that southern Texas girl. I didn't know any better. And so when I went up, um, we did not have an ideal interaction. And thankfully Damon had a bodyguard who whisked me away and took me out of that situation. And I learned that night what his bodyguard was for. And so that was my first and last interaction with Kim Kardashian. Funny enough, I actually saw Paris Hilton a few weeks later. It was the night that she met Matt Liner. They ended up dating for a while and she was fine. I mean, we said hi to each other, had some small talk. Janet Jackson taught me that night that strawberries pair with champagne as one would. And that's just a typical LA night back in the day. So, I have tons of those stories, but the moral of the story is I will never share all the details because trust and confidentiality are so important to me. And I want all those people to still trust me to be around them just like the lawyers do who hire me. So with me, I'm always going to be that person who will have a juicy story, but I'm just not going to give you all the details.

Nick: But that makes you an international woman of mystery. And isn't that more appealing? Maybe to me?

Delisi: I'll write my tell all book.

Nick: And I will buy it. My first fight is really not extraordinary at all. I was underage drinking at a bar in an upstate college and I said something mouthy to a friend of mine who shoved me and when I went to go get back up cuz he shoved me to the floor. I went to go get back up. I was lifted off of my I am a grown man. I am 6 feet tall. I was lifted off of my feet and picked up outside of this establishment and put down nicely on the ground. I don't know how a person could lift another human being like that. But to this day, I was like, "Wow, I am a tiny baby and I can be picked up and moved to another location through modality."

Delisi: Hey, you know what? It just makes us appreciate people like that.

Nick: I've seen videos of bouncers handling things a lot differently and this guy very peacefully removed me, which I am grateful for because I did not get hurt. So our fighting well I hope your fighting days are behind you. I have not uh been in a fight in a long time mostly because I am scared. But can you share a little bit about what you're doing with law firms right now for people who might not be familiar with like the because it's new, right? First Call Friday is really new. It's exciting but like what's going on?

Delisi: I started First Call Friday February of 2025. So yes, it is very new. Thank you. What do I do? I help lawyers make friends who refer them cases. So that's my magic statement, which I encourage all lawyers to do so people remember what people do and who they help. But essentially, I help lawyers connect with other lawyers so they can send cases to each other. And I help lawyers think of different ways to market to former clients because hello, your former clients can all be referring you business. And they're the best people to refer you business cuz they already know what you do, who you help. And those personal referrals, I mean, they're just so strong. That's going to convert higher than any ad ever can because that personal referral carries a level of trust that you can't buy. That's what I do. All referral marketing.

Nick: I often tell this, it's not really a story. It's it's just a part of my upbringing that my grandmother uh still to this day, I will not age her, runs, I like to say she runs a personal injury law firm in Brooklyn because I have to imagine that my grandmother, I know her very well. I know her personality. She runs this place. And I would always like I wanted to go to law school and I would hang out with the lawyer. Um they're very close. They've been together for I can't say how long they've been together for. Sorry. Uh if my grandmother watches this ever, she will kill me. So I would always ask him questions like, oh, like what do you do if this happens or what do you do if this happens? And I once asked him cuz I I had no semblance of like a specialized practice. He practices a personal injury and it's a lot of bicycle accidents in Brooklyn because people ride their bikes. And I would be like, "Oh, like is it so cool when you like defend somebody and you go to court like all this stuff? What what do I know?" And he's like, "I would do that." And I'm like, "What then? What do you do?" And he explains it to me. And I say, "Well, what happens if someone calls you for that type of case because you have a big name?" And he says, "I refer it out." And I started learning about like how lawyers actually do that. then come to start working here at answering legal I was a terrible terrible salesman and a few years ago it was a lot more common for people to say I have a general practice and so they don't refer out cases but now when you speak to someone we will consult with them what type of cases do you handle what type of cases are your ideal cases and if something comes in we don't by policy tell the caller that you don't handle this case we'll send you this whole and we'll let them know or we'll let them know whatever you want them to know, but you refer it out as you see fit and we don't get into that um mumbo jumbo, right? So, I started learning about like how you should have these relationships, but I've been learning so much more from you. So, I want to get really into it. I don't I don't want to talk about anything other than that. What is it that you help lawyers do to encourage them to… how do you facilitate this?

Delisi: So, first it starts with a discovery meeting because I need to look at their data and ask them a bunch of questions before I can provide any kind of opinions on any of it. And so, I'll give you an example what you just mentioned. During my discovery call, one of the things I'm asking them is, "What happens when someone calls your law firm and it's a case that you do not accept? What do you do?" And if they don't have a system in place for how to refer those cases out to someone else, that's one of the first places that I start because think about how much it takes to get someone just to make that one phone call. you have someone who is looking to hire a lawyer and looking to take an action, it just so happens it doesn't match your case acceptance criteria. If you just say, "I'm so sorry that's not something we do. We hang up." Oh my gosh, like my heart hurts. I want to immediately help you fix that one part of your business because everyone should be referring out those cases to someone who can help them. And so what I do is I'll start asking them different questions where I start with the very beginning. What are you doing with the cases you can't accept? If you're not sending those what would be rejected cases to a referral partner and using that to create referral relationships, that's where we have to start 100%. That's where we have to start becauseall of those referrals can be relationships you're creating with other law firms who in turn are going to want to send you a case back because you're sending them business. I mean, if people could see the video of us just like hand gesturing and making faces right now because you know what I'm talking about and I know what you're talking about. That is gold right there. So yes, I start with that and I help talk them through what that looks like if they haven't done it. So let's say one of your clients says, "Hey, Nick, um, I hear what you're saying. I understand that's important, but I don't have relationships with all those people." So what I will do is I will help coach them through how to do that. So here's a free tip for anyone listening and who isn't going to hire me yet. If you're trying to figure out who you can refer those cases to, one, ask your colleagues who you already have relationships with and who you trust, say, "Hey, Nick, when I get a family law case in, it's not something that we handle. Who do you send your family law cases to?" And see if your friend Nick has a recommendation. Great. Um, can you make an introduction to Jan? I would love to meet Jan and see if I can refer my family law cases to Jan. And now I know that the relationship I'm creating with Jan is one that Nick referred me to. So I'm more likely to trust Jan because Nick is my friend. I know, like, and trust Nick. And so if he refers me to Jan, then I appreciate that. And we both have Nick in common. So that's easy. If someone's listening to this and says, "I don't have a Nick, though. like I like I don't know who to ask for forel to a family law lawyer. Go on LinkedIn and ask your colleagues on LinkedIn. If you start to notice in that post the same lawyer is getting recommended like five times, well, I think you just found your referral partner cuz that person clearly has a great reputation if so many people are referring them to you. And here's like advanced Nintendo for you. Let's say you're like, "Okay, Delisi, I don't want to use LinkedIn and I don't have friends. I am a introvert and none of this applies to me. I'm not like you." And that's okay. Then my recommendation to you is to go on Google and do a search for family law attorney and see which attorneys pop up and have ads. Why? Well, because the person who's spending money on ads probably has an intake team because they need to answer all of those phone calls, right? You don't want to spend ad money and you don't have someone answering the calls. So, they have an intake team. They probably have 24/7 phone service as well. And then you can go and you can look at the reviews and see who has good reviews and start having conversations with those people. And so if you're going to refer a case to someone, you want to make sure you're referring it to someone who has their business put together well. And I would start creating the relationship with those people. The second part of that is whoever spending money on ads and has that system in place probably has calls that come in for case types they don't accept. So when you start to build that relationship, then you can say, "Hey, Nick, you know what? I've been sending you those family law cases and I know a few of them have worked out. I would love for this to be a reciprocal relationship. Do you ever get criminal defense cases? Cuz I would love to earn your criminal defense case referrals. You start at intake. You start at intake and you start with your rejected cases cuz that is easy money. You can make that change today. 

Nick: I love that and I wanted to give you a little like yelp of excitement when you started your discovery with any lawyer, right? And you put the onus on them. You're not like, "Oh, you sit around and wait and call people up and ask for referrals." No. If you get a rejected case, which inevitably you will send that to somebody that you know, like, and trust, or maybe, right, how I would do it, if I was an introvert, which I am not, I would do, say I had no friends, I had I don't have a Delisi, I don't have anybody, I would go to Google. Um, no, I I jumped the gun. ADHD. I would tell the person who called me, "Hey, I'd love to help you connect with a really great lawyer who can help you with this problem because it's an important one. Um, give me 8 hours with which to do this research. I will get back to you." And it's just a recommendation. You don't have to do anything that you don't want to do. You are building the relationship, right? You're making the first move. You're not relying on the universe to come knock on your door and start sending you referrals cuz it's most likely not going to happen. I shouldn't say never. Say, say you successfully set up this relationship, right? You make the first move. You send a referral partner to uh a referral partner. You send a case to a potential referral partner. You call them up. You have this nice conversation. It goes really well. What do you do from there?

Delisi: I do a few things and I'll share them in order. So, first when I transfer that call to the referral partner, one of the things I make sure I do is tell my referral partner as much information I already know about the case so the potential new client doesn't have to repeat themselves for the 75th time and then get annoyed by it. I do that for two reasons. One, because I don't want that PNC to be annoyed they're repeating themselves again. Two, I want my referral partner to know when I refer a case, I'm going to refer it nicely. I'm going to do a warm transfer. I'm going to tell you about the case so you don't have to ask all the same questions because how you do anything is how you do everything. If I make that warm transfer and it's a great experience for you, you're probably going to be like, man, if that's a rejected call transfer to me, imagine what it would be like when they actually handle a case. So once I make that transfer, I would have intake or anyone in the office follow up with that law firm and say, "Hey law firm, I referred Nick to you earlier today or I referred Nick to you yesterday. I just wanted to check in and see if that referral worked out." And the reason why I do that is because I want to know if the cases I'm referring to Nick's law firm are converting. I'm following up because I'm trying to build a relationship. I'm following up because I want to remind them how many cases I'm sending their way. And if Nick says, "No, I'm sorry, we didn't accept that case." Then I can ask the question, "Okay, can you tell me why?" I want to understand your case acceptance criteria. So when I send you a case, I know it's a case you're going to accept. And if Nick says, "Look, the reason we didn't accept that case is because Maria got married in Texas and our law firm is located in Illinois." She didn't tell us that she's only here in Illinois for a small amount of time during the divorce, but her home is actually in Texas and we got to file in Texas. And I was like, "Oh, okay. That's good to know." And so I'm building a relationship with the referral. The next thing I do after that, I'm calling that potential new client that I transferred to the law firm partner and I'm saying, "Hey, Maria, I just wanted to check in with you. Was Nick's office able to help you?" They were. Oh, great. We are so happy they were able to assist you. Maria, can I ask you a favor? If I send you this Google review link, do you mind leaving a review of your experience? There are a lot of people out there who get really nervous about calling law firms and it would be so helpful if you could help us by leaving a review of your experience so other people feel comfortable calling us for help. Now I've gotten a Google review out of a rejected case and I'm creating a partnership with that law firm I just sent to the case and that is efficient marketing.

Nick: You are really good at this.

Delisi: Um, thank you.

Nick: And it's so well spoken, too. Like off the top of your head, you But you do it all day.

Delisi: So, it's like I do it all day. This is This is my jam, Nick. This is my jam.

Nick: I love it. So, you have the referral uh partnership like set up. You you know, your your your SOP for contacting the person who called you and the firm and learning more about what type of cases this person handles and this person handles. You get that all set up, right? How then do you evaluate those relationships, right? Because I I'll give you a good example. I have people that I refer business to because we deal with a lot of lawyers and as you can imagine, call volumes fluctuate for lawyers and they will call us and they'll say, "I need to reduce this or I need to cut it all together and and and they're like, "My marketing isn't working." We're like, "Hey, cool. We could totally do that. Freeze your account, cancel, whatever. But if you need help, we have partners that we know, like, and trust in the space that we'd be happy to recommend you to. What are you looking for? What is like where is your area? Whatever. And then we can help you get connected. So I know like there there's the people who actually email me and tell me that they referred me someone so that I know how to pay it back. But um how do you stay top of mind for your referral partners? How do you sort of um continue to foster that relationship?

Delisi: I do it a variety of ways. So, I stay in touch with my referral partners by phone calls, text messages, emails. A lot of the people I refer business to, I have strong personal relationships with, I've been in legal for 20 years now. And so, the people I'm referring business to, I've known for a long time. So, it could be like just a random text where I'll say, "Charlie, did you see this?" And I'll just I'll send a text message. The other part is LinkedIn. I believe everyone should be on LinkedIn posting, commenting, connecting professionally, sliding into the DMs. And so I connect and stay top of mind with a lot of people through LinkedIn, too. I'm also a huge fan of gifting. And so if I see something that reminds me of a referral partner of mine, I'll just send a random gift. So, um I try and do birthday gifts for all of my referral partners, too. And I will congratulate them if they're doing something that I really applaud because I want them to know I see them and I recognize what they're doing is amazing. And so, sometimes it's that and also just a hey, can we connect? You had Ron Latz on the show recently and Ron is a friend of mine and he and I will message each other. I'll ask him for advice on something and he will ask me a question and we just vibe really well. So, every once in a while, Ron and I will just hop on and just say, "Hey, let's talk this idea out together and we'll just we'll talk it out." And so, I think staying top of mind really depends on the person and what they're comfortable with. For me, I do all the things because I'm just that person. But for some people it might be something a little bit more simple and a calendar reminder to do it to you where me I'll just do it in the moment. So it's a variety of those things. I try so hard to organize my life with a calendar and then the calendar will remind me to do that thing. I don't want to do it yet. and and or I've already done that thing that it needed to remind me to do because I'm an in-the- moment person.

Nick: So, I very much identify with what you're saying. And also, I love connecting with Ron because he's very helpful in really all facets of of any information or advice that you would need. Okay. Aside from that, what are in your opinion some of the referral sources that law firm owners might be overlooking and what else are are they missing about referrals? Cuz I feel like in in a traditional sense, people kind of they'll be like, "Oh, yeah, of course I refer my cases to this person and he does a great job and they refer cases," but they're not really thinking that much deeper about it, right? Like what are we all missing here?

Delisi: I refer to those as hidden referral sources. So, I'll give you an example. I did a training session with my referral marketing club the other day and I asked them to do a homework assignment and I encourage everyone listening to this podcast do the same homework assignment. Ask your friends and family, do you know what I do and who I help? You would be sadly surprised how many people who are your family members and your friends who you think know what you do and who you help, but spoiler, they don't. They need you to remind them because then they start to forget and they're not thinking about you every day of their life. So, you have to stay top of mind with them and you have to repeat what you do and who you help, even to your family members and your friends. I clearly am Mexican. My mom is the youngest of 12. I have 57 first cousins just on my mom's side. I have 60 altogether. And so, if you asked me to tell you what all my cousins did, I'd be like, I have no idea. I just found out the other day one of my cousins is the top insurance agent in Texas. And I was like, "Oh my god." Cuz I had no idea you sold insurance. Like I should be introducing you to some of my PI clients. And he's like, "I know you work with lawyers, but I'm not actually like 100% sure what you do. I just know if I need a lawyer, I'm probably going to ask you for a referral." And so I use those examples because there are people you interact with on a daily basis. I promise you do not know what you do and who you help. You think they do, but just do the homework assignment. The next people you interact with for the next 48 hours and you see them on a regular basis, say, "Hey, Nick, question. Do you know what I do and who I help?" And just don't say anything. See what they say. I do this exercise with myself probably once a quarter with people I know and interact with just to see what they answer and it helps me understand if I need to refine my message or I need to talk more about what it is that I do and who I help. So your hidden referral sources first family and friends. You might not think about it but your family and friends are not super clear on what you do and who you help. So, do not hesitate to tell your family and friends what you do and who you help. The next layer is going to be all the people outside of your family and friends you interact with on a daily basis. And you take those people for granted. Think about your neighbors. Think about the parents if you have kids that your kids have playdates with all the time. Think about your doctors. Think about the people you meet at church if you go to church. Think about your friends that you play activities with if you're into sports and you have extracurricular activities. They are all around you, but they can all be sending you cases if you remind them what you do and who you help. And the other places, Facebook groups, people forget how much gold is in Facebook groups. I'm a part of a mom's group. I'm a part of a girl scouts group. All those groups, they ask for referrals all the time. And so those places are good, too. And the last hidden place, and it surprises people, and it makes them sick to their stomach, your staff. Law firm owners think their staff are really good about being advocates of their law firm and that they would bring in cases if they could because they work in your law firm. And so clearly, they would refer your law firm. But it's not until I ask them, "What have you done to train and help your law firm staff feel comfortable reaching out to a family member or a friend or a loved one and referring your law firm or a referral partner's law firm to someone when they need it?" And I'll give you an example, personal injury. Personal injury lawyers are like, "My law firm staff would obviously refer a case. They work here. they know what we do and they know who we help, they would do it. But I would challenge those lawyers and say, "Do they though?" Because I promise you, intake and marketing could feel comfortable doing it. But when someone has been seriously hurt, do they feel comfortable knowing what to say to that person they care about in the moment on how to refer the case and take personal injury out of it? Criminal defense, probate, family law. I mean, when you call a lawyer, it's not because you're doing something fun and amazing, right? You call a lawyer because you need help with a really life-changing moment, and your staff are hidden referral sources because you forget to train them on how to refer business to your law firm in a way that's comfortable for them. Because your paralegal might be great at working up a case, but your paralegal might not feel comfortable knowing how to tell her best friend whose mom just passed away what she needs to do to probate a will. And your accounting manager might have a family member who's going through a divorce and they don't know how to appropriately say, you know, aunt Denise, I am sorry you're going through this. None of us ever liked him anyway. But what do you say to that person you care about in the moment that feels natural for them? If you train your staff and have those conversations to equip them with the tools they need to refer business to your law firm, your staff can be that person, too. And to make it full circle, and I'll finish right here. One of the things I'll train my law firm owners on is training their staff to know who their referral partners are because life happens to everybody. And if your paralegal knows you send all your family law cases to Nick's law firm, if they're in a mom's group that says, "Hey, does anyone know a family lawyer? I'm getting a divorce and I don't know who to call." I want my law firm staff person to say, "Hey, I work at the Clark Law Firm and I know whenever we have a family law case, we all send it to Nick's law firm because he's the best." And then my law firm staff just referred a case to one of my referral partners and I want to train that staff member to come to me and tell me when they do that. So then I can call Nick's office and say, "Hey, my um my law firm staff just referred a divorce case to you. I hope they reach out Imagine how amazing you would feel if you were Nick's law firm and you got that phone call and you're like, "Oh my god." They train their staff to refer cases to me. Amazing. All those referrals are around you. You just need to remember to have those conversations. And if it's your staff, train your staff to do it. They're all around you. Tell people what you do and who you help. And don't forget to train your staff how to refer cases to you, too. 

Nick: That was gold. I don't have 57 cousins. I bet you I don't have 57 family members. However, I do have one uh like family that my family is particularly close with. I think it's my mom's first cousin and then her kids are my cousins, their second cousins, I guess. Anyway. This is such a good example of what you're talking about because it's so true. I didn't know what my younger cousin did professionally. Um, I know where she went to school, what she was interested in, and I guess she didn't know 100% what I do professionally. And one night, because I am admittedly a recovering workaholic, I am sitting in my living room and I get an email cuz I'm crazy. I read the email and it's this very long well-written email and I am sure that she wrote it because this was this predates ChatGPT and she's also very very very intelligent and it's this really well-written email detailing what this firm actually needs in terms of call answering. They have a specific headline that they needed created. It was really cool. It was a really cool use case. And I read the whole email and it's signed Ali Patoe and I say Ali Patoe that has to there's no other Ali Patoe out there. That has to be my cousin. This is 8:00 at night. So I texted her. I'm like, "Are you the Ali Patoe that just sent answering legal an email looking?" And she was like, "I really thought it was you. I should have texted you." And I so thank God I intercepted it because I was able to be like a my cousin like you know facilitate right um thank her appropriately and all that but neither of us knew what the other person did for sure which is totally different from because I communicate with my grandmother about professional things because that's just our lives. When she needed help she legitimately called me in the middle of a workday and was like I'm firing the answering service right now. I need your answer. This is like eight or nine years ago and I thought it was so cool. I was like business referrals, relationships, all that stuff. Um I want to ask you something else. So I spend because I am obsessed with self-improvement really truly. Um because I spent a lot of time being stagnant and then I didn't know a lot of things and it overwhelmed me and so I never really wanted to feel like that again. I want to be able I want to be open to learning and so now consume information probably too much. I'm on Reddit forums about like legal marketing, marketing, Facebook advertising, SEO, and a lot of it is is just psycho babble and people putting up fake posts to scam you. But there was one really caught my attention and it had a lot of uh traction. It was really cool. It was a lawyer who was on I believe it was just r/marketing and he was saying, "I have this new practice in this area. It's really competitive. I'm really nervous. Everybody keeps telling me I need this huge budget." And I got this quote from some marketing company that I'm vaguely familiar with. I don't know if they do a good job or not. I have no connection with them. And he was like, "Uh, I'm nervous and this and that." And other people were chiming in, "You don't need that. You don't need this. You don't need that." And it was a disaster. So, I threw my proverbial two cents into the ring and just said, "Hey, you I don't think are being given a fair shake at what you need. you're making assumptions about what you need and these people are telling you that they want to sell you a product. I know this person who owns this uh law firm marketing agency personally I know that they will give you the best evaluation of your market and what your and and understand your goals and your business objectives and growth objectives and budget and all of that and will custom tailor you what they believe would be the best move for you going forward with no high pressure sales tactics. And I was just like, I threw it out there. I put a name into the ether and I never followed up because I don't really I don't really want the credit to be honest with you. But because you just want to help. I just want to help. And think of Right. And I want I kind of want to ask you because you probably know the ramifications of this better than me, but I have this thing with my team that we call mobilizing your base,right? Which is doing such a good job that people talk about you behind your back really well without wanting credit for it. Is that something that you believe that you can really affect by doing this sort of thing? 

Delisi: When you get really good at maintaining relationships and obviously doing really good or providing really over-the-top stellar experiences for your customers and and really your referral partners, all these relationships, right? Is it a phenomenon that more stuff just comes to you that you can't really attribute because people are just talking about you kindly behind your back? I think and I will attribute Brian Glass to this. I love to ask the question and who can I thank for the referral. I ask that in my business because I heard Brian Glass say that on one of his podcast episodes and I'm like that's genius. But I also encourage the law firms that I consult with to ask a question like that during intake because it's great when you can find out how someone was referred your name and unless you say that intake might say how did you hear about us and they say Google but then they forget to say but because Nick referred me and then I went to Google to find your name and number and so you don't get the information. But I think when you do really great work and people are happy with the product and the result, they become your cheerleaders, they become your raving fans, as we say in marketing, and they refer business to you, but they do it so casually cuz they believe it and they're not looking for anything in return that you might not find out it was them who referred you. Sometimes that happens and you don't know who referred the case or referred the business to you until a little bit later and then you can thank that person. But sometimes I won't find out another lawyer referred a lawyer to me until later on we'll be having a conversation. They're like, "Yeah, you know, John mentioned that to me when he told me to call you and I'll say, "What are you talking about? You said you found me on LinkedIn. I didn't know you know John." And then they're like, "Well, yeah, John's the one who told me to follow you." you and that you'd give me all these great tips on how to gift. And so, yes, it happens all the time and I'm a huge fan of it. I love when that happens. I think that's a great sign that you're giving great experience to your clients.

Nick: Wow, that's really cool. Sorry, you got my wheels turning. Okay, last thing I want to ask you because…

Delisi: So wait, before you ask your question then I'm going to bring back to your your cousin example. when you gave the example of your cousin who sent you that email and your cousin didn't really know what you did and you didn't really know what she did. Like what happened after that? Did that moment change your perspective on telling people what you do and who you help? Like how has that changed what you do ever since that example? Because not everyone has an example like that.

Nick:I will say that I was not cognizant of your advice until just now where I should let people know what I do. Um, especially in like all contexts, right? Maybe I can help. Maybe I can point you in the right direction. Maybe I can help facilitate you finding a lawyer because you're not comfortable. And I have done that, right? Because some people do actually know what I do. However, I admittedly in a wrong sense was always one of those people who you ever see funny stories that people will say of I got an Uber and I'm talking to the Uber guy and he asked me what I do and I say digital marketing and the Uber guy says back to me, oh so you work for Google. I'm always like nobody understands it anyway. You know, I try to explain that I do marketing and people are like, "So, you do marketing for Answering Legal? So, you help lawyers and you do their marketing?" No. But onus is on me to let people know what I actually do. So, I was not cognizant of that. It has just become a funny story at Thanksgiving that the one time I intercepted an email from my cousin who I didn't again admittedly see as a professional because I always she's just like my little cousin. You know what I mean? Like I give her Yeah. So, I have to be more and I don't even do this on LinkedIn and people have pointed this out to me. I'm never looking for somebody to just send me stuff. I I go on LinkedIn and I post stuff that I think is interesting about weird thoughts that I have and I never tie it back into and if you think this you should check out an answer. I I don't do that. So maybe I should.

Delisi: Okay, then I have a tip for you then. Some people don't do it because it feels salesy and it feels not like the person they are and it doesn't feel authentic to them. And whenever someone tells me that the advice I give is okay, don't ask for something for yourself. Ask for something for them. So, the example I'll give is let's say you're at Thanksgiving and you're around the table and one of your cousins or your aunts, your uncle, someone tells a story about something that happened at work recently, right? We all have that conversation. It's okay to follow up with it and say something like, "Hey, Aunt John or Aunt Joan, how would I know if someone I'm talking to is a good referral for you?" I like to ask that question. And by the way, that's not me. Um, oh, the book's not up there. Um, I'm rereading the book Endless Referrals by Bob Burg, and it's a question Bob Burg encourages everyone to ask. How do I know if someone I'm speaking to is a good referral for you. And now you're asking that question to understand how to know who to refer to them. and you're giving them a reason to tell you, well, you know, the best referral for me is a personal injury lawyer in Texas who handles car crashes, but they need someone to send their trucking litigation cases to. Great. Now I know who to refer. Here's the flip part of that. Usually that will be followed up with and Nick, how do I know if someone I'm talking to is a good referral for you. And if it doesn't happen naturally, then you can bring it up naturally, you can bring it up next time, whatever you want to do. But I like to encourage people to ask the question, "How do I know if someone I'm talking to is a good referral for you?" because Bob Berg was definitely on to something when he said that's a great question to ask because I would rather find out how to refer someone to you and then see if you're going to ask me how to refer a case back to me because when someone answers that question and asks me what I do in return to me, that means they understand this should be a reciprocal referral relationship or them asking a question in return tells me they care about referral. referrals to and I know what to expect. If they don't ask the question back, then I'm like, huh, okay, well, maybe I shouldn't expect a referral in return from that person. This is just me understanding what they do and who they help. And so, if it feels weird to you and you don't like it, don't say anything about yourself. Just ask, you know, what a good referral looks like for that other person and then they'll tell you when you ask the question.

Nick: I love that. I'm going to do I didn't think of it.

Delisi: It's all Bob Burg, not me.

Nick: You know what though? I have not had many original ideas in my life. And someone very smart told me that they have never had any original ideas in their life and they don't plan to. But I am open to the idea that I might one day think of something smart. I actually and then share it with the world. Yes. So I actually And that is something else that I I'm like I have secrets and my strategies. No, just everybody else can can know things. I saw I swear. And first of all, my mom's name is Joan.

Delisi: I didn't even know it. Classic. Classic Joan. Classic.

Nick: So when we're sitting there, everybody's saying, "At Joanie, Aunt Joan, aunt Joanie." So I'm very used to that. And who's named Joan? Right. I don't know that many Joans.

Delisi: I don't know very many either. So it was my way of like fixing the mess up when I said Aunt John. I was like, "No, that doesn't make sense. Aunt Joan."

Nick: There you go. And yeah, well, John is more common. Joan is not. Okay. I have I do have one more question for you because you you did kind of cover this. Okay, I'm going to tell the story. I in the morning spent a little too much time on social media. This morning uh before I left, I was on Instagram and it's just this uh like farmer looking guy standing, he's sipping a cup of coffee uh in front of his nice like farmhouse and captions come across the screen. Long story short, it's uh my neighbor came to me and he said he couldn't do anything in his house because he needed Wi-Fi and if I would share the password, it didn't cost me anything. So, I I gave him the password to the Wi-Fi and he comes outside a couple days later and he's very excited to tell me that he got Netflix and he's been watching these shows on Netflix. I you know, I've been working really hard. Haven't had any time to like watch any TV shows, but he's giving me the recommendation, but I don't have Netflix. So, I asked him if he would give me the password to his Netflix account. And his wife shouts from the window, "I can't give you the password to the Netflix account because I pay for it." He's like, "Oh, okay. That's like really unfortunate." And a day later, he gets a knock on the door and the wife is like, "What happened? Like, I can't access my Netflix account." He says, "Well, I paid for the Wi-Fi and uh I I changed password because I I pay for it and like I can't share it." And so you not baiting people into, but you want to know about the person that you're potentially going to refer stuff to and like their character, right? I wouldn't want to refer. If I met you right now on this podcast and I was like, "Oh, Delisi, like I don't know if I ever refer anybody to her, you know? I I wouldn't want to do that, right? I want to know your character. I want to talk to you a little bit. I want to find out what you're about, what you believe, how you help people, how you conduct business. Are you reliable? Do I like you?" I So my my final question is besides just that, what are red flags? What are some red flags to look out for in a referral partner or a potential referral partner?

Delisi: Red flags to look out for would be someone who doesn't communicate well. That's definitely one of the red flags just in general because lack of communication is the number one cause of bar grievances in the United States. So, a referral partner who doesn't communicate well is a big red flag for me. Going back to the phrase, how you do anything is how you do everything. They don't communicate with you and you're a referral source. Literally, someone who's trying to refer them business, I'm going to go ahead and take a pretty safe gamble. They don't communicate all that well with their clients. Another red flag for me is probably going to be definitely number two. Anyone who doesn't treat their staff right or your staff right, if I ever hear of someone who disrespects someone on my team, I'm immediately not going to be sending them any more cases. If you feel comfortable disrespecting my team, you're probably doing the same with your team. And it's never okay to treat my staff inappropriately. And so that's a huge red flag for me as well. Another red flag for me in the same vein as communication is going to be if someone ghosts me. You know, communication and ghosting go hand in hand. But if I'm trying to reach out to a referral partner over and over and they're just not responding at all, that's not even a red flag anymore. It's like a like a siren going off in my mind. So, communication twice in a variety of ways is going to be another one. And the other thing I would say would be if you have clients who you refer a case to and they tell you they didn't have a good experience because one thing that's really hard and this has happened to me a couple of times. I will refer a case to another lawyer. I refer cases all week. Every single week I refer a case to another lawyer because people know if they ask me who to call, I'll tell them exactly who it involves. There have been instances where I will get a phone call and someone will say, "Hey, you told me to call Lawrence. I called Lawrence. He signed up my case and now he is not responding to any of my phone calls and I'm getting really frustrated Delisi." And so I now have to call Lawrence and say, "Hey, Lawrence, I need you to know you're putting me in a weird predicament right now because I referred Kathy to you and now Kathy is blowing up my phone saying no one in your office is returning her phone call." And I will do that and give Lawrence the benefit of the doubt and be a professional who calls him because I want to know how Lawrence responds to that because how that lawyer responds is going to tell me if it's a red flag or if it's a green flag. A green flag would be if Lawrence says, "Oh my gosh, Delisi, thank you so much for telling me that. I'm going to go look up my notes in my case management system right now and talk to my staff and see what's going on. I'm so sorry. I'll get back to you in 24 hours and we'll make this right. Red flag is going to be if Lawrence is like, I don't know what you're talking about. She's probably blowing it out of proportion. It's fine. And blows me off, too, or doesn't respond at all. And so, how that person responds to a scenario like that is going to tell me whether it's a red flag or not. And I will always give someone the benefit of the doubt because there are crazy clients out there. Let's be honest, there are there are crazy clients who think their lawyer should call them back every 30 minutes and they need to have their cell phones. I get that. But how you respond to those situations tells me a lot about your character. And so I'm paying attention to how someone responds to a scenario like that and using that to determine whether or not they're a red flag. And so those those are probably my top ones. And if I think about everything I just said to you, almost all of them have to do with communication. I mean, communication is just so key. Someone else might say, "Well, if they don't refer you a case back, that's a red flag." And I would challenge them and say, "No, not necessarily. If you're referring a case to another practice area and you expect a case back in a month, is that realistic?" I mean, if you're a criminal defense firm and you're sending cases to a family law lawyer, how many referrals for criminal defense cases do you think they get a month? What if the answer is zero? What if it's once or twice a year? So, it might not be a red flag. It might just be you need to have better expectations. 

Nick: And maybe you just become really good friends and go like fishing or play pickle ball. People play pickle ball all the time now.

Delisi: Yeah. You need to know what kind of relationship you're having. 

Nick: So, okay, I'm gonna prove that I learned something here because like I told you, I do I really do love to learn. I'm being 100% earnest when I tell you that like I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn trying to learn. Sometimes sometimes LinkedIn is a little dry on the learning. We're going to be honest. So, usually I end this podcast, but I'm going to amend this by asking I'm going to I usually ask for anyone in our audience who wants to follow or your work or connect with you further, but I'm going to take it a step further now. Okay. What is the best way for me to refer people to you? How do I help people get in contact with you who who may need to speak with you or who I believe should speak with you?

Delisi: You can make an introduction to me via LinkedIn. I'm a huge fan of introductions done through a direct message on LinkedIn if they're on LinkedIn. If they are not on LinkedIn, I will give you my work email and you can introduce me via email and I'll give you my cell phone. So, you can just send me a text and say, "Hey, Delissi, just sent you an email. I have a referral for you." So, I know to respond right away and that would be the best way to make an introduction. I'm a big believer in like custom introductions, not just saying, "Hey, go visit firstcallfriday.com and fill out the contact form." When it comes to referrals, I like to personalize them. So, those would be the two ways that I would suggest.

Nick: Yeah, I'm actually the same way. I like to be like a little involved. It makes me feel good. It's not that I want the credit. It's that like, hey, you Ted Lasso says this. Congratulations. You both just met a really cool person, right? Oh, I love that. Did you watch Ted Lasso? Oh, heck yeah. like the living Ted Lasso but in the United States and he doesn't coach soccer. I don't coach soccer. I used to have a better mustache. My wife didn't really like my mustache but I was Ted Lasso for Halloween and I'd like to think that I am Ted Lasso or at least I tried to behave like Ted Lasso would behave except a little more rough around the edges which we're going to work on.

Delisi: We could all use some more Ted Lassos.

Nick: Be curious, not judgmental. But that's Walt Whitman, not Ted Lasso. But you get what I'm saying. Anyway, I want to thank you so much for joining me today. Seriously, I learned so much. But I want to give a special thank you to our listeners. We hope you enjoyed this conversation. I'm sure you did. We will be back with another episode of Everything Except the Law soon. Be sure to check out previous episodes of our show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and the Answering Legal YouTube channel. If you want to talk to Delisi, please let me know. I'm [email protected]. You can find me and all of Delissi's links in the description of this episode everywhere that you're listening or watching to it. We'll see you next time, everyone.