Brandon Dawson Ditched His Boring Law Firm Name & Started Signing 200 Cases Monthly

Welcome to episode 47 of The Earley Show podcast, hosted by personal injury attorney Christopher Earley! For this conversation, Chris is joined by Brandon Dawson, Founding Member of The Thumbs Up Guys Injury Attorneys.

Check out the episode below. You can also enjoy it on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Brandon and Chris discuss the importance of building a strong firm culture, the necessity of continuous personal and professional growth, and the process of rebranding to "The Thumbs Up Guys!". Brandon also shares insights on effective marketing strategies, the significance of investing in your team, and maintaining work-life balance.

About our guest:
Brandon Dawson is one of the four founding attorneys of the Thumbs Up Guys Injury Attorneys. While his early career focused on advocating for injured clients in workers’ compensation and personal injury cases, Brandon now oversees the strategic direction of the firm. He dedicates his time to managing operations, marketing, client intake, referrals and fostering the firm’s growth while ensuring the delivery of five-star client experiences.

Brandon has been recognized for his leadership and professional achievements, earning accolades such as inclusion in the prestigious South Carolina Super Lawyers Rising Stars (2019–2024), National Trial Lawyer Top 100 and receiving the Martindale-Hubbell AV Preeminent Attorney rating in 2024 and 2025.

Learn more about Brandon's firm here!

About The Earley Show:

For nearly 20 years, Christopher Earley has successfully led a personal injury law firm in Boston. On the Earley Show, a new podcast launched in the summer of 2023, Christopher and other standout attorneys will be sharing their secrets to success, and discussing the law office management habits that have allowed their practice to thrive. If you’re looking to make better use of your time, increase daily productivity or even just spend less time answering emails, you’ll definitely want to tune in to The Earley Show.

Learn more about the Earley Law Group here!

Check out the previous episode of The Earley Show here!

The Earley Show is a part of The Answering Legal Podcast Network.

Interested in learning more about Answering Legal? Click here to learn more about 400 minute free trial!

This podcast is produced and edited by Joe Galotti. You can reach Joe via email at [email protected].

Episode Transcript:

Christopher Earley (Host): Hi, everyone, welcome to another episode of The Earley Show, sponsored by our friends over at Answering Legal. I'm your host, Chris Earley, a Boston personal injury attorney. And as you know, we always bring you the best and the brightest in the legal industry. Today's no exception. We have Brandon Dawson from the Thumbs Up Guys. He's a PI lawyer in South Carolina. He's really getting after it. Literally give me the thumbs up, I love it. He's living the model. And so he and I met, and I wanted to get him on because I see him doing big things. He's really truly getting after it. So as always, we're going to learn a lot. I'm sure we'll have plenty of writer downers as we do on each and every show. So Brandon, really excited to have you on the show. How are you today, man?

Brandon Dawson (Guest): I'm doing great, Chris. Thanks so much for having me on here, man. It's hard to believe. We met several years ago at the PIM, or excuse me, at PILMA. We were just at PIMCON together, but at PILMA. And it's been fun to follow your journey. And I think at that point in time, you hadn't quite leaned into the Earley tag that you now have, and you were kind of toying around with it. And I said, man, you got to go for it. And I'm glad to see you continue to grow. And I've enjoyed listening to the podcast. Thank you. It's a lot of writer-downers and pencil sharpeners.

Christopher: You know it. You know it, brother. So here's a writer-downer to start. When you and I met, we met at, as you said, PILMA. We were sitting front row at a table together. And you taught one thing I remember I was talking about was Wyse Hire. Everyone should be looking at Wizehire as you recruit. I leaned into that. I found fantastic people. So if you're looking for people, check out Wizehire. That was one takeaway that I took from you.

Brandon: Awesome, man. Yeah, we still use it. It's great. You get the disk assessments in there. You know, it puts out those job postings on several platforms. And so, you know, as we've continued to grow, really hiring great people has been one of the biggest struggles. We want to make sure we get great people in here. And I think that's been one of the kind of secrets to our success, is really finding great people. And Wizehire certainly has been a huge component to that.

Christopher: Yeah, we found some good people as well. So I want to, you know, before we talk about today and where you're at, you know, you've built a large firm, right? Can we just go back? I'm just curious, you know, growing up, as I was like to ask, just like, because we are who we are, frankly, because of like stuff at the start. So like, you're just talking about growing up and like, you know, how you got into law, basically.

Brandon: Yeah, you know, really, no one in my family was in the legal field. My mom grew up in an entrepreneurial family that started a lumber company. My dad ended up going and joining the lumber company. And then he started a nursery up there. He loved plants and all that sort of stuff. So he's selling wax myrtles and pine trees and was growing that empire. Unfortunately, he passed away when I was pretty young. I was nine years old. Yeah, you know, life, you know, things that happen in life for a reason is certainly one that I've always kind of, you know, said, what's the why? But I've learned a ton from it. It's crazy to think that's over 30 years ago now. But, you know, he was very entrepreneurial. He was, you know, when he passed away, he was actually opening up a second location. So I think there's some of that in my blood, just the entrepreneurial side of it. The legal side of things, you know, I always enjoyed, I think, kind of the cliche answer. Yeah, I always enjoyed kind of asking questions and arguing and that sort of thing. And came out of Clemson in 07 in the financial markets. I was working in that and then 08 hit and I said, I don't really like this. The markets were tanking. And I said, how can I go rack up a bunch of student loan debt? And so I said, I will go back to law school. And really it was, I said, how can I actually differentiate myself? Instead of getting an MBA, I thought a law degree would give me some other opportunities. And as I got into the legal field and started doing more and more internships and summer clerkships, I really gravitated towards helping people. And I knew I never wanted to bill hours. I knew I didn't want to work for insurance companies. It was soul sucking work. And I was lucky enough to be at a firm where they did a lot of class action work. And one of the partners there took me to an interview with a Bellwether client. So they pick a couple out of these class actions that they want to go try. And it was a Chantix case. That's the smoking cessation drug. And it was causing all these hallucinations. And this totally normal guy ended up committing suicide just a few weeks after he was on Chantix. And I met with his wife and talked to her. And he had written a note. And it was just crazy to me that these companies could get away without warning that that was a side effect. I think if he had known that that was a side effect, he could have said, I'm going to stop taking this. This is what's causing these suicidal ideations and thoughts and ultimately actions. And really that, I think, was kind of the final draw. I said, I want to do this kind of work. And so ended up getting a job doing personal injury at a small shop. Helped grow that firm to about 50 people and said, I think I can do it better. And luckily, I had three great partners that were over there, friends that were over there, and now partners. And so in 2018, we branched off to do our own thing. And then we kind of trudged along for a couple of years. Those first few years, as you know, you're eating ramen noodles. And we didn't pay ourselves for, I don't know, six, eight months. We all had a couple of kids that were under two years old. And we were just figuring out how to make it work. And then here we are today. So it's the overnight success. There's a lot of people on the outside probably look at it and say, but behind the scenes, that's not at all how it goes.

Christopher: Well, I'll tell you, I'm still eating ramen. So you're way ahead of me.

Brandon: You're well on your way, my friend.

Christopher: So I'm just curious, because your story resonates. I didn't know we had that in common. So you started talking about it with your father. My dad voluntarily left the picture when I was about eight. Did you grow up just with your mom? Like, did she remarry?

Brandon: Yeah. So she ended up remarrying a couple of years later. I think I was 11. And I had an okay relationship with my stepdad. They ended up getting divorced when I was in college. Yet I was much more team mom, obviously. I'm still friendly with my stepdad. But yeah, it's a really weird thing that somebody who was a father figured to me during a very pivotal point in my life that I don't really speak to now. If I see him, glad to see him. You know, I have no ill will towards him, obviously. Things that worked out with him, my mom. But yeah, it was very interesting in that. And I was very lucky.

I was close to my granddad. Unfortunately, not to be a sob story here, but he passed away a couple of years after my dad. He fell out of a tree stand, broke his back, and ended up having a 10-hour whipple procedure to have multiple rods put in his back, died on the table, saw his guardian angel. He said, Calvin, it's not your time, went back, and then he lived another about a year and a half. I think that kind of beat him down. He ended up getting pancreatic cancer. But that really, it was crazy, because he wasn't afraid of dying. At that point, when he got pancreatic cancer, he kind of was like, all right, I know where I'm going. I had to get too religious on the podcast. It helped me with my dad a ton to know, like, all right, well, like, I mean, I believe, you know, I'm a Christian, I believe in heaven, and, you know, everybody's got their own beliefs, and I fully support that. But it helped me to say, all right, like, there is something else out there. Although I believe it now, granddad is telling me that he saw it. And so again, things happen for a reason. But, you know, that was something that, you know, I look back on and again, trying to make the best out of a bad situation. And I learned a lot. But my granddad was, he was super, I was super close with him. He was a great father figure for me for those couple of years. And I was fortunate enough to have two really, really close best friends. And their dads were like second fathers to me. And so, you know, that kind of mix of growing up. And my mom was a very, very, very strong individual. You know, I think I have, my mom always likes to say she got, I got the best of both her and my dad. And thank God for that, because she's an amazing woman. Yeah, still, you know, so thankful for her and the strength that she had.

Knowing what it's like having two kids myself to right now, all of a sudden, if I had to deal with what she dealt with, I mean, just unbelievable strength to pull through. But as you know, having kids, I mean, you would, you just do what you got to do. And that's kind of the same thing, I think, in life and business. You know, my situation and how we kind of got started here wasn't necessarily how I would have planned it. And I won't go into all the details. But you know, it kind of was like, all right, like you're thrown out, and you got to figure it out. And you either lay down and give up, or you say, all right, I'm going to keep fighting. And that's always kind of been my mantra, is like failure only happens when you give up. You know, if you keep trying, you're not a failure.

And guess what? All great successes start with a bunch of failures. But no one ever talks about the failures. They just say, well, that one time you hit it, you're successful. But it really does. It starts with tons of failures beforehand that no one ever sees. I mean, right. I think Edison and the light bulbs, a great example, they always talk about WD-40 got its name because there were 39 other attempts. It was the 40th attempt.

Christopher: Oh, I didn’t know that.

Brandon: So there's so many stories like that. Yeah, we could talk about a million of these. KFC, I think the Colonel didn't find his recipe until he was, what, in his like late 60s.

Christopher: Later in the game.

Brandon: He finally figured it out.

Christopher: Yeah. Well, that's what this show is about, Brandon. It's not about like, you know, PI as much as about persevering and thriving in the face of adversity and doing big things. And that's why I wanted to have you on. It's like, you know, you're growing, I think you said your firm is about 70 people. That requires what for some is knockout blows, you know, hits across the face. You just keep going, keep going. That's what this is all about. You have to persevere. Think about that, I don't know if it's a real story or fictional, the guy digging for gold gives up right at the end, and then someone comes in and scoops it up. Failure is not something to be afraid of. I know that you're not.

I encourage the audience to lean into failure. It's a beautiful thing.

Brandon: Yeah, exactly. I mean, you kind of realize like, all right, well, I can keep going. It's not the end of the road. It's just the end of this path that you just kind of go to the next one and move on. But I think that you nailed it. It's like so many people look at that.

It's like, oh, if I'm not a success immediately, then I guess I got to completely give up and do something else. No, man, just keep going. Just keep going.

Christopher: 100%. The timing of the universe, like you can't control your success. Like most things you can't control. And like the Colonel, KFC, took him, I think he was like in his 60s or 70s, even Ray Hock, I think was in his 50s, you know? So I think I'm a late bloomer, to be honest. I think sometimes you can't control your fate, and you can control your effort and your output like you and I do. But it's going to happen when it's going to happen. So I think a big writer downer of patience is just like, be maniacally patient as you work your tail off, and you'll be less frustrated, and I think more fulfilled, and less beat down. Does that make sense? Does that resonate with you?

Brandon: Yeah, 100%. I'm a huge believer that everything in life is timing, and sometimes it's just not the right time. But you have to keep at it. And I think you nailed the other one, is you have to have the right mindset as well. If you don't believe you can do it, well, I can guarantee you, you never will. I used to have sticky notes that I would put up on my computer screen that said, believe we can sign 50 cases in a month. And at that point in time, if we hit 20, it was a good month. And I just said, I just have to believe, and just believe. And it sat there for a long time. And I believe it. And then sure enough, we hit 50, and I said, all right, believe we can sign 75, and moved it up, moved it up.

Christopher: There's a lot of stuff in here.

Brandon: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And this year, the goal is, I was like, we got to be able to sign 200. And last month, we finally popped the 200.

Christopher: Good for you. That's incredible.

Brandon: It's just that belief that we can do it, that our team can do it, and it really starts up here with the belief process, first and foremost.

Christopher: I just think there's power. We're getting deeper. I'm freaking loving this, by the way. But there's such power to writing things down and seeing that in your face. I write stuff down. I do affirmations every morning, Brandon, because I got to work on this stuff. Because I'll get into impatience, like, why isn't that happening, why I'm not here? I don't know. I'm really freaking grateful. And this is great. People would kill my problem.

Brandon: Writing it down, man, you nailed it.

Christopher: Yes. Because then it activates the tactile sensation of writing, gets into your brain, you believe the behaviors propel you towards that outcome, and I freaking love it. Let me add, I'm really fascinated. So, you left the firm you were growing in 2018 with a couple of other guys. Was it two or three guys?

Brandon: There's three others. There's four partners.

Christopher: So, everyone was like, we're going to go do, plant our flag in the ground and do our thing, start practice?

Brandon: Yeah, yeah. We basically kind of got a little disenfranchised. A lot of promises made, not kept to the other firm, and your culture wasn't great. It was actually a very toxic culture. And so, we learned a lot of things there. Some of them were things to do, but a lot of things that we not to do. We said, all right, we can do this better. And really, we built the firm with the idea that culture is the most important thing. And we have not strayed from that. And anytime we've had somebody who ultimately was not a good culture fit, we've shown them the door. I mean, sometimes probably a little later than we should have.

Christopher: Oh, yeah.

Brandon: But we've had attorneys that are producing at a high level, that they were not a culture fit. And we had to say, see ya. You're not welcome here. And you can go do your own. Obviously, we try to fix it first. But I think a lot of times, some people just can't be fixed. If they are kind of a toxic individual, they're not gonna change. And we've learned that early on, if we see those signs and we somehow missed it, an interview is such a short process. We try to do all the testing and bring them in and do additional outside of just kind of bringing them in for a quick interview. We try to do all that, but sometimes you're gonna miss. And the worst thing you can do is keep somebody on longer than you should. So the old adage of fire fast and hire slow.

Christopher: Yeah, I love that. And we're all guilty of that, right? As I heard recently, we never let go of someone too early that we know needs to be let go. We always wait and we sit, right? And we have an awe, we come home, we ask ourselves, well, I don't know what to do. At least for me, that's my experience. But now it's like, what's the best of the organization? So let me ask you, so if someone stopped you on the street and says, hey, Dawson, what's your culture? How would you describe? We'll go to the beginning in a second. I just want to hear today, what is the culture?

Brandon: I think it starts with mutual respect for everybody, that nobody is more important than anybody else. If you just started here yesterday as a receptionist, or you have been an attorney here from the beginning, or you're our CFO, or even me, right? We are all equals.

Christopher: Sure.

Brandon: I don't want anybody thinking that something is below them. And it really starts with the core values of having an ownership mentality, that we should always be growing. I mean, we are constantly sending our team members to conferences, and anything they really can say, hey, we think this will help us grow, we want to say yes to it and not penny pinch there and say, oh, I don't know, that doesn't… It's like, no, go. I mean, have we probably spent more money than we should have on and maybe not gotten the most out of that conference? But they love going and doing that. And I think most of the time, we're getting a good ROI on that. I mean, just the other day, we're flying a bunch of people to a conference at the beginning of December. And they were like, hey, we don't really want to drive to Atlanta. We want to fly. And it's a little bit more money. But you know what? They've earned it. They've worked hard. And we're like, yeah, like, why not? So treating your people with a lot of respect and really trying to listen to them and have some flexibility and understand. I mean, again, when we all started, we all had young kids and we still do. I mean, we've got, you know, between the four of us, we have ten kids under ten years old. And so we get what it's like to be a working parent. We can't be so rigid and say, you know, your kid's sick, all right, or you're fired, you can't do this. You know, we allow some flexibility with work from home. We mandate that people take their three weeks of vacation. They get 15 paid days.

And like, you have to take them because you're healthier mentally doing it. Plus another 10 holiday days. And every year they're with us, they're getting an additional day off.

So, you know, after five years, you're up to 20 paid days off, 10 additional holidays. So you've got what, 30 paid days off. I think that people work better if they're not worked to death.

Christopher: Oh, yeah.

Brandon: And so those are all like little things, you know, we have, we try to listen. They love, they wanted a popcorn machine. You know, we're like, all right, like, we'll get one of these, you know, movie theater style popcorn maker.

Christopher: Who doesn’t love that? Come on. Of course.

Brandon:You know, it's just like the little things that go a long way. To make people happy.

Christopher: Yes. Probably costs a hundred bucks. That’s a hundred dollar investment. That’s priceless. So are you guys all in the office or are you hybrid?

Brandon: Mainly in the office. We have a few people that are remote. I am a firm believer that you do a lot better work together in person. But ultimately, as we've continued to grow, I mean, we've got an office, you know, in Columbia, which is a couple of hours away, we've got an office across town, which has about 10 people over there. So we have had to understand that technology plays a role. And so it's like, all right, well, if you're in Columbia or you're at home, well, you know, does that really change it? Like, not really. I think that a lot of people, especially young attorneys, young staff members, they learn a lot by just being around, kind of that osmosis, just hearing it. You don't get that at home. You don't have water cooler talk. You don't overhear a conversation of how to deal with a difficult client. I just am a firm believer, and so all my partners are very staunch in this as well, that being in person makes a big difference.

And you're starting to see that in big tech and all that. And they're all saying, return to office because it's just not the same. Now again, we do have some great team members that work remote, and they are very efficient, but I think there's a very select amount of jobs, the roles that that works for, at least for us. And again, there are a million different ways to do this. There are some people who kill it doing remote work. That's not us.

Christopher: Totally. And I don't know how I stumbled into running a remote firm, because it just sort of like, I think, and then just going off on a tangent, I work better without distraction. And so for me, it works. For you, you have to do it with your personality. For you, it's in person, but I encourage the owner, aspiring owner, listening, you can build the firm you want. There's no, right? It's like you can build your ship, however you want that ship to be constructed. So super, super helpful to be aware of, I can build whatever firm I want, you know? But it's really good, because if you're running a remote firm and you really love being in person, like you'd be a miserable lawyer, entrepreneur. You gotta like do it, build your boat, the way you want it to be designed. You're gonna track those mutual respect, culture-abiding people who resonate with that, and want to do work, do good work together. Let me just ask, because you've had a lot of growth, obviously, in what, seven years as a firm. I just want to highlight both Brandon and I spoke separately on stage at PemCon, and his presentation was really good because the stuff you're talking about resonates with me. I know with this audience. I like how you, and don't take it the wrong way, I feel like you had a boring law firm name. It was like soap and water, and intimidating and scary. And then you went the whole opposite spectrum of the thumbs up guys. So I think that's a super savvy, memorable slogan that resonates with people. It's just so simple.

Brandon: We recognized early on that Miller, Dawson, Siegel, and Ward was a mouthful. We were four generic looking white dudes in a crowded market with a bunch of old white dudes. I mean, that's just the fact of what it was. And so you're like, all right, how do you stand out in that? And so the first marketing agency we hired, they were like, oh yeah, lean into it. MDSW, we tried that and it didn't work. And I was like, yeah, I kind of figured this wouldn't work. And then we hired Whitehardt, who we work with now, and they've been a great partner of ours. And they said, you know, we've got this thumbs up idea brand that we've been using and it's going great for these other guys. Come to find out there were two other firms, one wasn't really using it, the other one, they were doing okay. But we were like, okay, we got pitched that in the Wolf Pack. And fortunately for us, the state doesn't allow animal monikers. And so the Wolf Pack was out, although one of my partners is an NC State grad, and that's the Wolf Pack. So he was like, all right, let's do it. The Thumbs Up Guys really did resonate more with us. I would be lying if I said that we immediately saw it. And said, oh, that's it. We said, all right, we can get behind this. And I still remember, I used to talk to my grandmom probably once a week. She got a rest of her soul. She passed away last year at 102.

Christopher: Oh my God.

Brandon: I'm hoping I can match that.

Christopher: Hell yeah.

Brandon: She was an amazing, amazing woman. And I would talk to her because she just had such great wisdom. And she said, Brandon, The Thumbs Up Guys, she said, that resonates with a two-year-old to me at 100 years old. She's like, it just feels good. Everybody knows that. And that clicked for me when she said that. I was like, you're right. It just resonates across all genres. I think everybody here knows that means something good.

Christopher: Yeah, that means good. Thumbs up, like we're good.

Brandon: Yeah. It's like we got it. And so at that point in time we said, all right, we got to lean into this because we know that MDSW doesn't work. And heck, people can't even remember four initials, much less four names. And so we leaned into it. I remember when we went and shot the commercials up in Nashville. And I came back and I told my wife, I said, I think we've got something here. I said, I really like what we just shot. I think this is going to work. She was like, you're ever the optimist. And I said, I am. I am ever the optimist. But I really did feel it deep down that this was going to work. And obviously, a lot of that was you got to spend the money, too. One of the things I will say that really sold me on White Heart being a true partner and not a vendor was when we first went to them, we said, all right, here's what we're looking to spend. And they said, sorry, we're not going to work with you. And I'm like, what? And they said, no, it's not enough money. It's not going to work. We don't want to just take your money for you to fail. That doesn't make sense. And I said, wow, that's really honest. A lot of people just take your money. And we did some billboards early on, not nearly enough, and they took our money, and they didn't work, and they don't care. They just want your money, and they're out the door. That's it. They look at you like that. Whitehardt looked at us as a partner and said, if you succeed, we succeed. You're not spending enough money. You've got to spend more to make it work. And we had this conversation. We said, all right, it's either now or never. If we don't do this now, we're gonna look back and say, shoot, I wish I had done that. When I'm 50 years old, I'm gonna go, damn, what if we had done, what if we had actually done it? And I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to say what if. And my partners, again, we were all been very aligned in that. We were like, all right, yeah, we can, let's do it. And at that point in time, I think it was like 70% of what we were roughly bringing in. Again, it was very up and down roller coastery in a month. But about 70% of our budget was going to marketing.

Christopher: Whoa, man.

Brandon: I mean, it was pretty much everything we had. I mean, we stayed really lean. And this was too late, but we didn't hire our first full-time, or really any part, but we had a part-time person that came in a few times. Our real first hire, we were two years out. Rent was like $1,000, if that. And the biggest thing that we had, our expense was just like marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing. We were getting used, I think we had a refurbished laptops. We were finding people giving away computer monitors and desks. It really was, I mean, how can we save as much money everywhere else and put it all into marketing?

Christopher: That takes a lot of nerve. I've never heard of a percentage like that. So hats off to you.

(Ad Break)

Christopher: So for how long, if you don't mind me asking, were you at such a high percentage?

Brandon: That first year roughly. And then we were like, all right, we kept the spin the same. Fortunately, revenues started to grow. And then it was like, all right, it doesn't have to be 70% anymore, but we still get very, very high. And every year going, all right, let's do more. Let's do more. And just really trying to reinvest that. We had had a couple of years where top line revenue had grown, but bottom line net income really hadn't changed much. And I think in fact, one year was actually the exact same, although we had probably $3 million more revenue. And it told me, we're doing all the right things. We're putting it all back in. And then we were able to, last couple of years, we've been able to almost double. I think last year we were nearly doubled. We went from 9 to 18 in a year. And that was just top line revenue. But that was all from just pouring stuff back in, pouring stuff back in. And then you started to see that. And this year, we're having another, I wish we were doubling, but it gets harder to double.

Christopher: A little bit, yeah. Oh my god.

Brandon: We’re having a great year, because we've been able to pour money back into marketing. That's the goal, man, is to keep growing. To quote John Morgan, if you're not growing, you're dying.

Christopher: Yeah, I think about that a lot. Can I just ask you, so you did that shoot in Nashville, I think you said, why did you come back and say, I think I got something? What about that? Because I think that resonates, that can be helpful for the viewer listener. When you got a winner, you know what told you that was a winner, and that you should ride that sucker.

Brandon: Yeah, I mean, part of it was just gut feeling. When we shot the commercials and I saw the vision, it connected with me, and I said, I think it connected with other people as well. It was definitely a much different feeling than when we shot the first commercials. And I kind of was going, I don't know, like, is this going to work? You know, you're on your trust in the marketing team and, you know, great guys. It just, I remember filming them and going, I don't know, like, this doesn't feel right. Where those, when we shot them, I felt like they were going to connect with people. And that really was it. The Thumbs Up Guys was going, because we knew that was a big problem, the name, I felt like Thumbs Up Guys was a brand that would work. I thought it would be sticky, that people would remember it. And, you know, we really leaned into that.

Now, a few of my partners still to this day are kind of like, oh, yeah. They're like, people remember it, you know. And we back up the name with results. And I think that's the most important piece of it, is, you know, we're going and trying cases. Or, you know, we had a couple that settled this year right before trial. We just had a nine million dollar one that settled at mediation after a year. I mean, I think the case was four years old. You know, a lot of work went into that case. And I'm super proud of our team and my partners for the results that they were able to get for that family. But that's what I mean. You got to back it up with the results.

Christopher: Are you handling cases now or not yourself?

Brandon: No, fortunately, again, you know, my vision for the firm was for me to be able to be more like a CEO role and lead the team. And I've got tremendous partners. And we've all said, I kind of, here's your role. And I've been very intentional as we've continued to grow to have those conversations and say, what is, are you okay with this?

This is the role I want to be in. Over time, it's become easier. You know, at first, it was a little scary, you know, to say, all right, you know, you're going to go from being a, you know, significant producer to not producing at all. And just trusting the vision and knowing that this is the best seat I can be in to help us grow the most. And in all, I think this goes back to kind of one of those core values of, you know, ownership mentality and always be growing. But being yourself is another one that we have. And I think that you succeed at the highest level if you're doing something that's like true to you, that you're good at, that you love. And I love this side of it. And Jeff and Sigal, they love working on cases. My other partner, Ryan Miller, I mean, he's great at the cases, but he really is starting to enjoy more of the business. And I'm saying, all right, let's put you in a seat that you're really happy in. Because you will do your best work. I think there's an old saying, too, right? Where if you find a job you love, you'll never work another day in your life. And I feel like that's where I am, man. I mean, this is not a job. I love what I do. Don't get me wrong, there's certain days that it's stressful and things like that.

Christopher: Never!

Brandon: But it's not, I'm not coming in here going, man, I don't like, I gotta do that. And early on, you're wearing, I always talk about wearing hats. And early on, you're wearing every hat. As a business owner, you know that, whether it's taking out the trash, reconciling accounts, writing checks, dealing with clients, signing up clients. I mean, it's like everything. And as you continue to grow, you can start to offload some of those hats. And you actually realize that you can put that hat on somebody else who's actually a lot better than you are at doing that job. That I think is really one of the biggest takeaways that people should have, is that you're not the greatest at everything.

Christopher: No. Just a few things.

Brandon: Find the couple of things that you are great at and let go. And a lot of owners, especially lawyers and doctors, kind of the professionals in that arena, struggle to grow because they won't let go. They want to do everything.

Christopher: Mindset.

Brandon: We have been able to say, hey, I'm happy to let that go. I want to be the dumbest guy in the room because I'm surrounded by insanely smart and talented people. Well, that's always been kind of my goal.

Christopher: I'm with you. That's mindset, like go to grow. You got to get your head in a spot where you're going to have a good career. And like you, I surround myself with people who are good at things that I'm not good at, which is most things. So you lean into what you're really good at and crush it there. I have people who can crush it on the things that you're not so good at. So you really went heavy on marketing. That's not for the faint of heart. You're not taking it. I'm sure you guys weren't taking anything off the table. You know, paying some people to reinvest, reinvest, reinvest, even when it's not instant. We talked about patience earlier. Patience, patience, patience. Having this iron stomach to do that. Were you just blasting, at that time, TV, radio, like billboard?

Were you just going big? Or was it all TV? Were you generally doing with the sound?

Brandon: Yeah, great question. We only were doing TV at that point in time. So we didn't have enough money to do all the other things. So we said, all right, we can be a marginal size player. I think we were like number five in the market, maybe at that point in time, five or six. So ideally, you'd love to come in top three, but depending on how competitive your market is, and Charleston is a shockingly competitive market. We came in at that five, six mark. If we spread it all out, we would have been too thin everywhere. We would have had three or four billboards, a couple spots on the radio, a little bit of noise on TV, a little bit of budget for PPC, maybe one bus driving around.

It would have been a little bit of everything is an ineffective way to do your marketing. And I think if you are starting off as a guy in our town right now, Gus, and I credit him, he has said, I'm just going to do billboards. That's what he's really putting all his money behind billboards. And you just have to find one thing early on and focus all of your money on that. We've got another guy, a buddy of mine, Trey Harrell, and he is very much heavy leaning into radio. And now he's starting to pick up some boards, some digital boards, and that's kind of that growth. He said, all right, I'm going to take this and own radio as much as he can. And I think it's been a successful play for him. Now again, Morgan's on radio now, we're heavy on radio, but he was early on, that was kind of an area that he had an advantage on. And you have to find that, not every market has those holes, but I think if you have a limited budget, find one vertical in the marketing field and say, all right, I'm going all in on that.

Christopher: I like, yeah, you're in a super competitive space, very competitive in your area, I know that, hyper competitive. Now, have you peeled off of TV? This is, sounds like you started this a few years back. Have you peeled off of TV? Were you still high on TV?

Brandon: No, no, we're continuing to spend on broadcast. Now, it's kind of everywhere. So, we're looking at either a new market or current market. I mean, it's, we want to be radio, TV, billboards, buses, you name it, we want to be everywhere all the time.

Christopher: How about social? You have a lot of outdoor and TV. Are you leaning into social heavy or not yet?

Brandon: We have toyed with social. We had some good results, and then it fell off a cliff. We're starting that back up. YouTube TV, connected TV, sorry, YouTube ads.

Nowadays, the streaming world or connected TV, as they're calling it, is so fragmented. We are messing around in that arena as well, just trying to figure it out to see what's working, what's not. At some point in time, you have to understand part of your budget is just not going to be really fruitful, but you have to go try it, and that's kind of where we are with social and YouTube and Connected is saying, all right, at least those are a

little bit more measurable. You can monitor IP addresses and Google IDs and all those sort of things to connect back. So it makes it a little easier than broadcast to track. But ultimately, I think a lot of people get too bogged down in what is their cost per case by Lead Source and will not really appreciate that it, just because somebody clicked on your Google ad, doesn't really mean that like your Google ad was what really generated that lead. It was the bust they saw, the friend they had, the commercial they saw, the social media ad that they saw. It's all of the touch points, right? I mean, the old one used to be seven times. I think now I've heard it's 13 times. Somebody has to be hit with a brand before. Obviously, our goal is to make sure that I want them to know that they're going to call the thumbs up guys before they ever need the thumbs up guys is the hope that our brand has resonated with them so much that they don't even have to think like, if I get into a wreck, well, obviously, I'm calling The Thumbs Up Guys. And we know that some people, they have the blinders on. It's like when you're looking for cars, you're not at all seen. And then all of a sudden, if you're looking for that black Tahoe, you see them everywhere. And so we also understand that there are shoppers like that, that they're hurt and then they're going, all right, well, who am I going to hire? And then we want to be able to provide that and provide them with all the information. Hopefully, they'll pick us. So yeah, everywhere all the time now is the goal.

Christopher: I love that you have to be. I encourage the listener to have a brand. Like, what's your brand? I really believe, Brandon, in this industry, things are changing, as you know, you stand top of this, you go to conferences, and you geek out on this stuff like I do. Private money is coming in. There's so much flux, like I've never seen in my 20 years of doing this racket. So the more I study it, the more I'm convinced brand is all the more important. So guys like us, as you know, I'm calling it early before it's too late. I'm just splashing it everywhere where I can. And if you want to grow the brand, you have to have, again, a steel stomach and spend a few bucks. And really get it out there, or else I think you're going to get some pain as this legal landscape changes so fast, man.

Brandon: I totally agree. The cost per case is continuing to go up, and that's something that we're hearing from all across the nation. People are saying costs are going up, and this is the vendors that do it with people everywhere. And to your point, brand is the one thing that can help you keep that cost down. If you're just trying to buy leads or do paper click only, you're going to find yourself priced out of it for the reason you just said private equity coming in and saying, we don't care if we lose money right now. We want to own this market and kill as many people as we can in here, and then we can bring the cost back down. I mean, that's the playbook, as old as time. Just kill your competition by offering it for a cheap or at a loss, and then come back in. And so the only people that can do that again are private equity-backed firms. And Morgan is now at that point where spin doesn't really matter. But yeah, we're seeing that, man. I mean, firms out of California are starting to spread east because they've got backing through Arizona and Colorado and those states.

Christopher: It's fascinating. I do think there's opportunity. There's always an opportunity, right? But you have to be a little like crafty and creative and nimble, you know, because no one listening to this can compete with Morgan.

Brandon: You’re never gonna outspend John.

Christopher: Right! Well, like not everybody, you know, he's, I consider him a friend. He's been on the show, We've Broken Bread. He knows, he would tell you, there's plenty of opportunity for everyone to eat well. We can all crush it. But like, how are you going to do it? How are you going to hunt that work down and bring it into your office?

Like, how are you going to do that? But I think that what you just talked about is correct about the private money coming in. I don't think a lot of people are really, I don't think, Brandon, a lot of lawyers are aware of the tsunami that's coming. So, I'm not trying to sound, you know, fatalistic here, but you got to really be proactive and develop that brand. To your point about culture, you want your team members to be your lifers.

You want Morgan's team members, some of them, you know, 10, 20, 30 years. Retention of team members, retention of clients, referrals, like all this really good stuff. So, let me just fast forward a bit, you know, just a lot of success. And hats off to you, I love the success. Let me ask you this, though, what's your biggest challenge right now? Because they say, be careful what you wish for. So, you wish for all these cases, you got them, but like, honestly, like, it doesn't get easier, I feel like. So, what's your challenge?

Brandon: The biggest challenge is for me and our team to make sure that we are growing personally, to be able to deliver to our team members what they need. And what I mean by that is, the leader that I was five years ago, six years ago, is a far different person than who I am today and who I need to be next year.

Christopher: I love that. I love that a lot.

Brandon: Seventy people now versus just the four of us. I remember when it was just the four of us, I would say, hey, boys, appreciate this right here because this is a very different dynamic. We can yell at each other from office to office. We can say whatever. There's no HR. There's no, you can't offend anybody. We enjoyed that time. I'm glad we were past that. But it's a very different world now, and I have to make sure that I'm continuing to level up, and the growth that we have will directly be tied to the growth that we all have, the four of us individually as partners, and then the team that we bring on underneath us.

Christopher: I love it. I love it.

Brandon: I think that's really the biggest challenge for me is like, how do I continue to grow to make sure that I'm the best version of myself for our team, so that they can grow? Because I want everybody here to, you know, as we continue to grow, it gives them opportunities to grow up as well.

Christopher: Yeah.

Brandon: So that has been so, so cool to see some of our team members that have been with us early on, that believed in the vision, that have moved up in their professional roles from just, you know, a case manager to now all of a sudden, you know, they're, you know, managing a bunch of paralegals, or they're heading up the intake, you know, the call center now and doing it at such a high level. So, you know, those things really give me the most pride, you know, when I see that, and, you know, they're happy, their family's growing, and their income's growing. It's like, all right, like, we got to keep doing that, man. We got to keep helping, giving them that opportunity.

Christopher: Well what you just said, I never really thought it like that, like, the leader you were five years ago is different than the leader you're today. And I always knew that, but never really thought of it like that, which is true. And so I want to share with the audience, I probably, at least every couple of weeks, say to my team, because again, we're a remote firm. I got people everywhere. I say in the chat, I'll teach them. Hey, remember, we're a teaching law firm. I intentionally use that phrase, we're a teaching law firm. I'm convinced, Brandon, when you teach people, and you pour into them what you're learning on these books, podcasts, coaching, masterminds, they level up. And they know that Brandon cares about him or her, right? Brandon really cares about growing. If people, you just said earlier, Morgan, you're growing or you're dying. So I think it's imperative to be evolving as a leader. You have to stay on top of this stuff. You have to level up or else your organization is not going to level up along with you. Let me ask you this as we close up. Is there a book that's had a major impact on you over other books, or even like a podcast, a resource, something that kind of like got you going and changed your thinking into more growth, bigger thinking kind of type of thing?

Brandon: I mean, again, we've thrown back to the godfather himself, John Morgan, many times, but You Can't Teach Hungry is a phenomenal book. It's something that I actually will pick up probably once a year and just read a different chapter here and there. And then he had, I can't remember his second version of it.

Christopher: Vision, Can't Teach Vision.

Brandon: Can't Teach Vision, right? Yeah. So those have been great books that I've really enjoyed. The Who Not How is a great one. It's like, who can do this, not how can I do it? And that kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier about offloading those hats and finding people that are better than you to do it. And then this is not really a business book, so much as just mindset. And we've talked a lot about that. But Bill Perkins, Die with Zero, is a great book. There's three things that you have in life. You have time, you have money, and you have health. And everybody values wealth as like, oh, you have wealth, wealth, wealth. You got to make more money. And in reality, you know, right now, if Warren Buffett said, hey, you want to trade places, I'd say hell no. You know, Warren, you're a great guy, but I don't want to be 92 years old. You know, I don't care about being 100 billion there. You know, that's like that. No more time.

Christopher: Yeah, man.

Brandon: So that same idea too, like with your health, all of a sudden, we all know it.

You jam your thumb playing basketball or something, and you take for granted how easy it is to open a door, to pick up a spoon. And when you have that jammed thumb, all you can think about is, oh my gosh, like my thumb does all these things. So that goes with health. And he talks about, you know, we have these kind of buckets in your life of things you can do. You know, when we were in our 20s, you know, maybe going to Thailand and doing a full moon party and staying up all night partying would be impossible. Like I have zero desire to do that right now. That ship has sailed. I'm doing it. I'd have zero desire to do it. But no one really tells you that. And so, you know, I really strongly encourage people to think about that and say, man, is this something I can do later? If I put it off, like, what's it gonna look like? And it gives a great example of people who wait to take that, you know, that big trip to Italy or wherever. And then they get there, and they're 65, and they can't get out of the bus because their health isn't that good. They haven't really taken care of themselves. They have all the money now, but they don't have the health, and they have the time, but they haven't focused on that. So it really got me thinking of, like, all those sort of things. You know, if you can say yes to it, do it. You know, we travel a ton. Take our kids. I get to take my mom. You know, it's like such a blessing, because she's taking care of herself. But, you know, I do recognize, I mean, she's going to be 70 next year. And we just need to really, really maximize every single moment and understand that, especially, you know, with the age that we're out right now, with the kids, and it seems crazy and all that. And it could be easy to get caught up in thinking, I got to make more money. But man, like, you know, having your own firm also gives you the freedom, hopefully, to have more time. And time is actually the most valuable asset. It's the one thing you don't get more time. You can always make more money. You only get so much time, and your clock is only ticking down.

Christopher: I'm with you.

Brandon: That's a great book. And he's on a ton of podcasts. That's a lot of stuff I listen to. I listen to a ton of legal podcasts, whether it be PIMCON, obviously, your podcast, Michael Mogul's Game Changing Attorney. Ken has some great people on his podcast, the Accelerator podcast. You name it, I'm always trying to listen to podcasts to continue the progress level up.

Christopher: I’m not surprised. You're a thirsty guy for knowledge, right? Always growing.

Brandon: We’re junkies, right?

Christopher: Honestly, man, it lights me up. I just want to throw out another book suggestion. It's called The Go-Giver by, I think, Bob Burg. I'm rereading that now.

It's really good. It's about being a giver. My wife, Brandon, is almost like obsessive volunteer. I say it in a loving way. She's a volunteer in the community. Thankfully, she doesn't have to work. So she pours herself into volunteering. We did some work earlier to start the week off volunteering. I think the more you give, the happier you get.

Because you and I know this grind is like, chasing money is just not what it's about. It's about purpose, helping people. I encourage everyone to pick up, definitely pick up, Die With Zero. I have that up on my desk. I only read 30 pages. I get to finish that bad boy and report back to you.

Brandon: Please do. And he's on a bunch of podcasts too. My wife doesn't read a ton, but she loves to consume in different ways. And she realized that just because you don't necessarily read, you can a lot of times find great guests talking about their book and their ideas on podcasts. So, a little cheat code for those of us out there that enjoy.

Christopher: I love podcasts. All right, hey, how can people get up in touch with you?

Brandon: Shoot me an email. It's just [email protected]. We have inpain.com.

We're trying to shorten that, get away from the MDSW, but that has kind of stuck in there. And I'd be happy to have you respond. You can shoot me a text, 843-284-7672.

I'm gonna go right to my cell phone and happy to answer any questions. And fortunately, people have reached out after the PemCon conference. And I was down at Litify, spoke at that earlier this year, and I was really appreciated the people that reached out and had questions. And so I really do enjoy that. So I encourage anybody out there, if you're thinking about it, just shoot me an email, shoot me a text. I'm happy to help. I was fortunate enough to have a lot of great people along the way to be able to ask questions. And I think that going back to being the go-giver, I love giving and I love talking about this and helping people. So always happy to answer an email, answer a phone call, whatever it might be.

Christopher: I love it. Public speaking is where it's at. You know, you and I met, but I don't know if we would have done this podcast if I didn't see you at PIMCON, right? Because you're up on stage like, oh, we got to get that guy in the podcast. And like so many things happen from speaking opportunities. So listener, hunt down those opportunities. Speak, okay? As many as you can. I'm lining up stuff for next year. Reach out to conference organizers. Hey, you need one? Sure, yeah, yeah. They need people, reach out. It can be a local bar. I don't care how small, you know, you live in a rural area with one bar civilization, go speak there, give value, be a go-giver, as they say. Doors open up insanely, so I really appreciate it. I applaud your success. I really respect the success and the hustle involved. So I'm really happy for you. Getting after, keep doing what you're doing, you know, growing, growing with people. I'm just truly happy to see you, you know, kicking ass. I'm really happy for you.

Brandon: Well, I appreciate it, man. You know, it has been a labor of love, and we're very lucky and blessed to be where we are. And I'm so proud of you and seeing where you have come. It's fun to make friends. And that's what I love about the plaintiffs’ bar, is we really do, you know, champion each other. And your success is my success, and my success is your success. You know, I just love that atmosphere that we have, that the defense bar seemingly does not have. You know, they're all trying to compete for each other's business. And you and I can say, hey, I've got this playbook. Do this, do that. Here's what worked for me.

Christopher: Helping each other.

Brandon: A little plug for our boy, Ken Hardison. You know, the PILMMA masterminds are great, any mastermind, but Ken puts on a lot of great ones. Fireproof has one, so I strongly encourage people out there that have a growing firm or want to have a growing firm. Get out there, find other people that are doing what you're doing, and again, get in that group, and you shortcut it so much. It really is such a great way to grow.

Christopher: I love it. Yeah, I love Ken Hardison, I love Mike Morse. You got to get into coaching, mastermind, when the time is right, when you have a few bucks in the sideline that you can invest. Absolutely, do it sooner rather than later, because you wait too long. This bus is going down with or without you down the street, all this progress, so make sure you stay on the vanguard of all this stuff. So, Brandon, really appreciate you. Thank you so much for coming on, man. I really appreciate it.

Brandon: Man, happy to do it. So glad we ran into each other at PIMCON, and here we are chatting, man. Great catching up with you. Thank you so much for having me on.

Christopher: Thank you, Brandon. All right, that's it for this episode of The Earley Show. Be sure to check out more episodes of our show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and the Answering Legal YouTube channel.