How Community Engagement Can Fuel Your Next Wave Of Cases

Welcome to episode 52 of The Earley Show podcast, hosted by personal injury attorney Christopher Earley! For this conversation, Chris is joined by Muhammad Ramadan, Founder and Managing Partner at Attorneys of Chicago.

Check out the episode below. You can also enjoy it on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts and Amazon Music.

In this episode, Muhammad and Chris break down how lawyers can build a thriving practice through community engagement, why leading with generosity builds stronger client relationships and how authenticity helps lawyers stand out in crowded markets. Muhammad also shares how improving intake, follow-up and internal systems helped scale his firm and why betting on yourself is often what it takes to break through early plateaus.

About our guest:

Muhammad Ramadan, Esq., is the founder of Attorneys of Chicago Personal Injury Lawyers, an award-winning law firm focusing solely on auto accidents, medical negligence, nursing home abuse and dog bite cases.

Muhammad Ramadan is from the South Side of Chicago and received his Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from DePaul University, Chicago and his Juris Doctor from Michigan State College of Law. The combination of his South Side upbringing and law degree, Muhammad brings his hustle work ethic, fighter mentality and law expertise to his practice and his clients.

Learn more about Muhammad's practice here!

About The Earley Show:

For nearly 20 years, Christopher Earley has successfully led a personal injury law firm in Boston. On the Earley Show, a new podcast launched in the summer of 2023, Christopher and other standout attorneys will be sharing their secrets to success, and discussing the law office management habits that have allowed their practice to thrive. If you’re looking to make better use of your time, increase daily productivity or even just spend less time answering emails, you’ll definitely want to tune in to The Earley Show.

Learn more about the Earley Law Group here!

Check out the previous episode of The Earley Show here!

The Earley Show is a part of The Answering Legal Podcast Network.

Interested in learning more about Answering Legal? Click here to learn more about 400 minute free trial!

This podcast is produced and edited by Joe Galotti. You can reach Joe via email at [email protected].

Episode Transcript:

Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Earley Show sponsored by our friends over at Answering Legal. I'm your host Chris Earley. I'm an injury lawyer in Boston. And on this podcast, as you know by now, you know the deal.

We always bring you the best and the brightest in the PI industry. So today is no exception. We have a guy who's getting after it in Chicago. He's got a lot of energy. He's getting after it. He's my kind of guy, my kind of uh guest who I like to kind of geek out with today. So, I'm really excited.

We have Mo Ramadan on the call. He's a PI lawyer out of Chicago. He's getting after it, like I said, and he's hustling for cases like we all are in this game, right? So, we're going to learn a lot from Mo.

Mo, thank you for joining us, brother. How are you?

Absolutely. Thanks, Chris. Appreciate having me. Like I said, I'm a fan of the podcast. Love what you're bringing to the industry and we definitely need a lot more of that.

Thank you, bud. That means a lot. So, thank you. So, we met at Miami NTL. Did you go last August to the big truck and auto summit in Chicago or no?

You know, I did not. I actually had a few friends in town. Um I had a lot going on. I don't recall. There was something going I went to the year prior to last year, I think. Uh so, I did go for a day to that one, but last year, no, I missed it and I had a few friends here and yeah, it was just a wacky schedule that week.

Yeah. Summertime. So, it was I bring it up because it was my first time in Chicago. Very first time.

Oh really?

Yeah. Very first. I knew nothing about Chicago. I had some good food. The architecture was definitely out there and different, which is cool. Big city, bigger than Boston. So, I enjoyed it.

Very clean. That's the biggest thing people learn.

It was clean.

Yeah, people learn that.

And people were nice to me. Like, it was uh it was it was a nice refreshing thing. Um, but before we get going, I just want to share with the audience. I do my homework before each show and I and I was googling Chicago personal injury lawyer. Mo's site was in the map. It was in the Google three-pack. He was also the first one in the search results. I just want to highlight he's doing a lot of things in the community, but he's not just community, he's also digital. So, we're gonna talk about how all these things come together as as one strong momentum for his marketing.

So Mo, you know, for those who don't know you, could you just take us back? I know, you know, you're you're a you're a big success, but you had to really, you know, come out right from, you know, just like me, you weren't sounds like you weren't given a whole lot of silver spoon.

No, I had a rusty fork.

Could you take us back? Did you grow up? You know, where'd you grow up? Family influences coming up.

Yeah, definitely. I have a pretty interesting story. Um, I I was born overseas. I was I was born in Palestine. My family moved here when I was to Chicago when I was maybe two or three.

So, uh, mostly grew up southside of Chicago. Um, youngest of six kids, you know, lived in a three-bedroom apartment. Um, you know, I was I was born to immigrant parents. So, those who are born immigrant parents know they they they are is just always survival mode, right?

Um, so that's kind of how we grew up. We moved around a lot. I was never in one school longer than 3 years my entire life, so I was kind of always the new kid. um hated it when I was growing up. Uh now I love it because I can kind of relate…. I've lived around every type of person you can think of. So it's kind of allowed me in my career now to really adapt no matter where I'm at.

Um so I grew up in Chicago, didn't do well in school. I ended up in community college. Um and I I still have my transcript. I had a 1.87 GPA at community college. Uh be completely honest, I was just kind of screwing around. Didn't know what I was doing with my life. Kind of running around, ripping and running. Um, and I think I just got to a point I said, you know, I'm either going to stay in school or I'm gonna find some, you know, union job if I'm lucky, right? I mean, that's that's the best case scenario.

So, I knew I wasn't a hard labor guy. I have soft hands. So, I said, you know, let me try this school thing out. I had buddies in the union and I'm I saw them waking up at 4 in the morning and just again, you know, the joke is I saw their hands. I'm like, that's just not for me.

So, I literally said, "Yeah, you know what? If I'm going to go to school, I'm going to be a doctor or a lawyer." Um, I was not smart enough for a doctor. I hated science. I hated math. I said, "That's definitely not for me."

Uh, so I was kind of stringing along. I took one, um, political science class in community college, and I absolutely loved it. So, I said, "Oh, this is cool." You know, let me try this political science thing out. Um, and I literally applied to the DePaul University as a joke.

Uh, my friend who I went to school with, uh, she was at community college as well. She was going to apply for school. Someone's like, "Hey, Mo, why don't you come apply?" I'm like, "Dude, I got a 1.8. Like, who the hell is going to accept me?"

Uh, so I applied to DePaul University, which is a private Jesuit university in beautiful Lincoln Park, Chicago. And um by God's grace, and I still don't know how, I I was accepted. And that's where everything changed for me.

Um one, you know, just initially, you know, DePaul's a great university. Lincoln Park is a very affluent part of Chicago. You know, I I'm the southside kid and I walking past five million brownstones, right? And and these beautiful trees and you know, to kids that that was normal, like I don't think they noticed that. But for me, I saw another world out there, right? For me, it was like, wait, the world is bigger than just my circumstance. And that was the first time that I got to see things outside of my normal realm, right?

You know, I didn't grow up around educated people. We… you know, bluecollar. Um, you know, I grew up around a lot of tough street guys. So, we weren't really lawyers. We needed lawyers is the joke I used to always tell people.

Um, and then DePaul's where I met my mentors. Um, they really took me in and just honed me in. And, you know, that just was cool. I mean, they taught me the game of life, right? And, you know, my mentor taught me like, hey, you know, nobody cares about your SAB story. Either get to work or, you know, nothing's going to happen.

And I looked at it and I told her I said, "Look, I'm never going to be the smartest person. I don't have connections and I'm not the prettiest looking guy, but the one thing I can do is work. Just give me the blueprint and I will work. One thing I know how to do, I've been working since I was 13. I lied to the car wash, told them I was 15, and I don't think they really cared anyways.

You’re hired.

Yeah. And I had a little mustache already going, so I think they kind of they're like, "You know what? We'll swing it."

Um, so I've always worked. Um, I was going to school full-time. I had two full-time jobs. Um, you know, we're kind of how you grow up. You eat what you kill, right? If you want to eat, if you want anything, you got to work for it and buy it.

So, um, I also stayed at home. My mom wasn't doing well. It was just her and I at the time. So, I was taking care of her, driving about an hour and a half commute to school. I would spend all day there Tuesday and Thursday. And then the other five days I would basically work my first job till 7:00 and then I would leave and then work my other job till about 10:00. It was like a little uh part-time thing and then I would study until about 1 and then rinse and repeat.

So I did that. I crushed it at DePaul. I got my GPA up to about 3.4, 3.5. I did just good enough to get denied by every law school that I applied to. I applied to nine. Eight of them outright uh declined me including the DePaul Law School. Uh, so I I recently won a distinguished alumni award and in my speech I reminded Dep Paul that their law school declined me.

Um, so Michigan State came in and said, "Look, we'll give you a conditional acceptance. You have to come in two months early. Uh, take classes. If we think basically you're smart enough for law school, we'll accept you." I said, "Hey, dude. This is my opportunity. I don't care. Just give me the chance. It's it's my life story has been just give me the shot and I'll I'll make it work."

Um, basically I got there, I did well. Um, so I got accepted to law school. I get to East Lansing. I pack my little Honda Civic. I drove there and I'll never forget it. This moment was two weeks in.

I'm sitting in maybe um, Evident, not Evidence, uh, CIF Pro. And I remember looking around and saying, "Holy s***, I'm in a Big 10 law school. Like, this is real." Like this is everything I've been thinking about for the last seven, eight years. Working, eating c***, you know, just doing what I got to do.

And you know, I finished bottom 20 of my class. I was never… Uh, I don't I might have got a couple A's here and there on some elective classes in law school, but I was never the, you know… Uh, I was kind of the curve helper, not the curve killer, as they say.

Um, but I always viewed it as, dude, I don't even belong here. Like, I'm playing with house money. Like just give me the license cuz I'll have the same license as every other person in this room and I knew I might not win in school but I could win in life because in life it's a different set of rules, right? There is some meritocracy when it comes to that.

So finished um about my 3 O year, you know, I'm bottom 20 in my class. I'm coming out in about 2011. So it's right when the the major recession hit in uh 2008. Uh you know, it's post-9/11. My name is Muhammad Ramadan. So, I'm not like a very attractive um candidate. Um, I applied. I sent maybe 50, 60 applications. I wasn't even getting interviews, Chris. Like, it's not like I was even getting a shot.

So, you know, at that point, I'm like, you can either wait and hope someone gives you something or I said, I'm playing with house money right now. What do you do when you play with house money? You go all in.

So, November 11th, 2011, I got… November 14, 2011, I got sworn in. December 1st, I signed my lease and started my law firm. So, I and I always tell this to… I mentor a lot of younger law. I always say I didn't do it to be a badass. It was out of necessity.

Always try to find that first job. So, I want to be clear on that to anybody that's listening. I don't promote it. Um, but just the nature of the market, it was either a $40 an hour doc review job or open up my own law firm. And I basically said, I'll bet on myself that I could make more than $40 an hour.

Uh, so I literally started doing $50, $100 traffic tickets in court. Um, I would get a traffic ticket, I would put a nice suit on, and I would literally just walk into different courtrooms acting like I'm looking for clients just so people can notice me. I would go to a different courtroom, act like I'm filling out a form, you know, and just hanging around the courthouse, uh, and then I would pick up another traffic ticket, right?

And it's like, cool, I made 200 bucks this week. All right, I got gas. I have, uh, you know, food for this week. All right, next week I got to make my rent money. And I would I started doing covers for attorney. Attorneys basically, here's a 100 bucks. Go to this courthouse, give me a continuance, pick up discovery, whatever. Which to anybody that's starting out, if you hear this, that is the greatest thing you could do when you start.

One, I got to meet a ton of attorneys. Two, you get to learn without worrying about screwing up because, right, you know, in criminal court, things happen all the time. And there's been times I'm like, "Judge, I don't know. I'm just a cover guy. Can I go call the attorney?" Right?

So, through that, I got to learn, okay, you know, if he violates his bond, here's what's going to happen. Here's how you handle it. Um, plus I was making money. You know, I mean, at that time I considered money. I mean, if I made 300 bucks in a day at the time, holy s*** dude, I did good.

Um, so I did that for a while. I got my first… Then you start getting your little misdemeanor traffic offenses. Now I'm making 500 bucks, right? Um, so I did that for about a year.

Three years in now, you know, I'm getting heavy duty felony cases. I'm doing gun cases, drug cases. Um, by my fourth year, I was on working on a double homicide. Um, you're you're old enough to know this. I wanted to be the next Johnny Cochran. Like that was my inspiration. Like I always joke like I wanted to be the Arab Johnny Cochran. That was my kind of vision.

Um, you know, six years in, seven years in, I'm like, I don't think I like this. Um, I think it wore me out a little bit. I, you know, I went hard in litigation right away. Um and just the day-to-day court and just a lot of different factors kind of um you know I got to a point I'm like I think I need to shift.

So I started doing some business transactional work which I loved but you know didn't pay very well. Um and I said you know I needed to replace the criminal with something and you know I started noticing I was getting a ton of PI leads and I was already kind of I was like you know what maybe I could dabble in the civil world.

I did criminal defense. If I could defend, you know, a double homicide, I could defend an auto accident, right? That was my mentality at the time. And um you know, I started looking into it. And um from the business side, what I loved about PI was the scalability of it, right?

When I looked at it, if you could have a great system, you have great staff, you could really scale at a much faster pace uh and a higher value than you could criminal defense. criminal defense, you need bodies in court. It's hard to find bodies. It's hard to get volume.

Um, so when I looked at that, it was very intriguing to me because I love the business side of law. Um, so, you know, I did the transition. Um, I worked on a few other cases with a couple PI lawyer friends of mine just to kind of learn it and then we started handling PI. COVID came. Uh, COVID was probably one of the greatest things that ever happened to my law firm. It allowed me time to just stop and really analyze and be honest with myself, right?

And I learned quickly I was doing things wrong. My intake was s***. Um, you know, I didn't really know as much as I thought I knew and I had to be honest with myself. So, COVID gave me the time and like YouTube was my best friend. I just dove into YouTube and, you know, watch different people like Gary Falkowitz on intake and um, you know, so many other uh, people. I'm big… Jordan Ostroff is a buddy of mine. Um he's great as well.

I mean there's there's so many people in the legal world that I started just kind of looking up. Um and then maybe the second year of COVID, I'd say 21 or 22 around that time. Um I said you know what we're doing nothing but PI. Um and I gave up everything else and we've been full force since then.

Um I had one paralegal since maybe 2018 for years. The last two years we've scaled uh we're definitely hitting seven figures in revenue now. Not settlements, guys, in revenue. I know that's a big debate number, but we're doing seven uh figures in revenue, which was my first goal.

Uh we're at nine staff now. I have a senior litigation attorney who handles a lot of our litigation. So, I've shifted a lot more into kind of the business side of things and honing in on our intake, our service, our follow-up, our community engagement, our operations.

Um, I have an amazing, wonderful staff. Um, like I have phenomenal people that work with me. I love coming to the office. We have a very chill environment. So, that's kind of the overall and we could dive into different philosophies as we go along, but that is the overall gist of my story up to 2026.

That's why I brought you on. You got a good story, man. You do. So, I got a couple questions. I got a bunch of questions.

Sure.

First two, looking back, I love the house money. I think you said that a couple times. Like, you're like, who gives a s***. I'm just gonna let it rip. And you know what? The world said, "Here you go. Here's your seat." like you know your seat at the table because you took it. You weren't scared. So listeners right now you got you can't be scared man. We're not playing small ball. We're going for it. We're building firms.

Scared money you don't make no money is what I always say.

100%. I want to ask you looking back when you were hustling right walking in the courtroom just acting you know I mean honestly like like me acting like you belong. You know I didn't know you know I never really had a suit. I, you know just like in a new uniform and new role in life. I'm an attorney and it was different.

Let me ask you looking back when you were sort of doing that traffic stuff and just you had no one really know who you were like you know they you were just kind of getting started. What did you do right and looking back what did you not the practitioner could be learned from?

It's a good question. I think what I did right um I created what I call the 5-second rule. I I'm a firm believer when you're in court and someone approaches you to do their work, you got 5 seconds before their impression is made. Either they like you or they don't.

Yeah.

So, I spent a couple hundred bucks on very nice business cards. I had a $100 suit from Men's Warehouse, but I made sure it was dry cleaned. My tie was on point. I smelled good. You know, I had a cheap watch, but it looked great.

Yeah.

Um and my um my tone. I focused on those things in the first 5 seconds because a person's going to make their impression. And I learned this because when I signed my very first felony, I asked the guy. I said, "Hey, dude, why did you pull me out?" Right? And he literally said what you said. He's like, "It sounds like you knew what the hell you were talking about and you looked good in court. The other lawyers look like s*** so I'm going to roll the dice with you." And I was like, "Wow."

Like people do make their perceptions on that. So I kind of leaned on that was like you said, act like you belong there.

So I would wait for all the veteran lawyers to go see how they talked. May I approach the bench, how to speak to the clerk, and I would just emulate that to make it look like I was that. Also, when I go in, I used to always joke with the attorneys, act like I belong there, right? I didn't know this guy, but hey, man, you see the game last night? The people in the crowd, they're thinking, "Oh, they're boys. He knows what he's doing, right?" Not knowing I don't know his first name, and I started two months ago, right?

So, there. I hate the term fake it till you make it, but you put it perfectly. Act like you belong.

Now, the things I did wrong. Um, I can give you a long list. Um, you know, I had zero systems. Um, and I think, and again, we didn't have ChatGPT. Google was still kind of not there. So, I'm kind of aging myself.

I wish I would have researched more and I wish I would have got more mentors and I wish I would have got more coaching much earlier in my career because recently the last couple years I've got into the coaching and and I've paid for consulting and holy s*** has it been a game changer and I that's one thing I always say damn I wish I did that four years in and not waste that kind of money trying things when I could have paid five grand to learn the mistake instead of 40 grand and learn the mistake the hard way back then 40 grand was like that was the pot I've been saving for eight months everything and I lost it you know um and yeah I think that is the biggest thing I would have used coaching and mentors and masterminds and conferences way more and I think I would have grew a lot better and a lot quicker if I if I did that early on.

Same, yeah you're speaking to the choir man. Um you so did you not want to start a practice you kind of you were forced too. Is that right?

Well, I always knew at some point I was going to start my practice my own earlier.

You were kind of forced earlier than you wanted.

Yes. I'm like, you know, I had a great job. So, I did an externship in Washington DC. Um, I wanted to do immigration law, believe it or not. So, I took an internship there. I had someone that knew the um chief of staff for the head of Department of Homeland Security. At the time, it was Department of Homeland or it was called something else at the time. It's now Department of Homeland Security. And she connected me directly to the department head.

So, I'm like, man, I'm I'm I got a shot here, Chris. I didn't even get a damn interview. Right. So, that was the final. I'm like, all right, man. The writing's on the wall, and I'm just the type um you know, I grew up around street hustlers, right?

And it was always you try to you just figure s*** out, right? That's been our whole life is, you know, we English wasn't our first language. You know, our parents weren't educated. You know, pops wasn't around. Like, you know, he's working like my mom taking care of six kids in a new country. like we have to fend for ourselves. Like figure s*** out was our life motto. And I just had the confidence that I would figure it out the same way I figured out how to get to DePaul. The same way I figured out how to work two jobs and go to school and raise my GPA. The same way I figured out how to get into law school when eight law schools denied me.

How did I get through law school? Like, you know, just figure s*** out. And I just said, I'm not going to put my destiny in somebody else's hands. I don't have any money. I don't have a backup plan, bro. Like, I really don't. And and you know that feeling, Christopher's like, eat what you kill.

And I said, if I'm going to sink, I'm going to sink on my terms, not somebody else waiting for an opportunity. So, yeah, it was, you know what, dude, it roll the dice, buckle up, and um get ready to eat c*** and just figure it out, dude. That was that's just that was my motto. And didn't you just know you were going to figure it out? It wasn't like you were taking a massive gamble.

Yeah, you're gambling, but you kind of know like it's this s***'s going to work out. It's going to be okay. Just got to get through this time, right? This hard. I dreamed of what I'm in right now. I knew I was going to get here. I just knew it was a matter of time. How long? I didn't know it would take this long and that hard and all that lost sleep and stress, but I am very very happy now because I dreamed of what I'm in right now. I really did. And I knew I was going to get there.

Uh, and and I always tell people the one thing I had was irrational confidence. I had I had no business thinking at that point that I'm going to have a seven figure law firm. No business, but I had irrational confidence.

My thought was, who the hell are you to tell me I can't? Oh, I can't. All right, cool. I got you. Like that was my mentality. I had irrational confidence and I still do.

Well, I think you know you really need it. You're really resonating. You do. You resonated with me hard on on everything you're talking about because you know we we were joking before about the rusted spoon as opposed to a silver spoon. I think it's almost like a blessing, right?

It is.

I'm curious. Dad was out working like I'm interested. What did mom was home taking care of what six, seven children, right?

Yeah. let me take care of the house. You know, it's six of us. Um, you know, the household and just, you know, this is the right that's a lot.

It is. And, you know, living and southside Chicago in the 90s was very rough.

Yeah.

Right. Um, it was a very rough time in Chicago. It's it was it was a lot of, you know, gang activities. It was just um, you know, Chicago was tough at the time. You know, my parents don't know anything about the streets of Chicago. They're from, you know, overseas, right? So, luckily I had two older brothers. Um, so I I was sheltered uh quite a bit from that. Um, and my brothers went that route. So I got lucky in a sense where um I was around it and I seen it.

Um, but I wasn't I wasn't enthralled with it. And I think that was my blessing, right? Like it just didn't appease me. And believe it or not, and I love to tell this part about my story, it was the street guys who told me to stay in school. Like you're smart, bro. Like you're not one of us. This is not for you. Go do better and be a better example.

You know, I messed around kind of in high school. Like my teachers never saw me that way. It was the street guys who gave me the confidence. They said, "No, dude. Like, continue with the school stuff. You're doing the right thing." And these are the guys I looked up to. So, I always like to give them credit because, you know, they're, you know, how society views them. But in my world, they were the first ones to push me to law school.

Wow.

They saw something. And then you start, you know, because you already have that inner confidence and that builds, you know, and you actually, you know, not to be like hooey, hooey, it sounds like you were you had a vision of where you were going, right?

So I hear from you like you were manifesting. If you knew where you're going, you're going to like me, you know, it wasn't a linear path.

It was kind of crazy because I think we're both a little nuts to be honest with a little nuts.

Yes. You have to be you have to be irrational. You have to be crazy. If you're rational all the time, like all the power to you, like that ain't me. It's not It's not you either. Like that's just it's not my bag. Like I can't do rational like boring vanilla. Like I like some spice. I like to like take a chance myself like you.

Evidently irrational makes you make slow decisions, right? Um, so you in our world you can't be rational and and you could call it ego, you could call it rational confidence, but for me my whole life, so I didn't know I was going to be a lawyer until like, you know, uh, community college or maybe DePaul, but my whole life I always said just because we grew up here, we didn't have much, who the says I can't have that? Who are you to tell me I can't have that? That that's where the ego kind of came in.

We're like, why can't I have that? like why can't I build for my kids? Who who's to say that? And once I got that in my head, it was like I have a point to prove not just to myself, but to also people in my community that yo, you we can do better. There's it's going to be harder. It's going to be longer. But, you know, and what I learned from the older guys, the street guys who I still see now, is they were brilliant in the sense they changed this. They wanted me to change the standard for their kids.

They used to always say, "It's too late for me, but you take away all the excuses for my kids, cuz I could tell my kids, he had it harder than you did, and look what he did. So, I don't want to hear anything from you."

And you know, that's why we say my law firm is bigger than just a law firm to me. It's a symbol. It's a space. It's a proven concept. So, that's what keeps me going, you know, with how you and I grow up, Chris. Like, we do fine financially, right? where, you know, we're not filthy rich, but like where we came from, like we're very good.

So, I always tell people money is not my motivation, right? Because I'm I'm okay. Like, my family lives well. Like, I'm take care of my mom. Like, it's not my motivation. My motivation is to continue building a model that others can see. And I want lawyers to know you can build this however you want, represent whatever you want. your core values as a human, as an individual not only can shine through, but should be the cornerstone of your law firm.

And and that's the big message that I I like to get to people out there. Don't shy away from who you are, where you're from. Um that's what shaped you. Uh build your firm around those values. Tell me if I'm wrong.

So you're not, for being brutally honest with each other, you're not chasing money. You're chasing impact. It sounds like you're chasing legacy.

Legacy, right? Impacting. Legacy denting, as they say, denting the universe. In a favorable way denting right making your own your impression.

So that's you know I rant and rave on this podcast, Mo, it's like don't chase you know practitioners out there don't chase money like I did that for forever right and I was unhappy as a result because like when you get a little bit of dough it's like yeah but then what right bingo what's next 100%.

That hit me Chris like…

Yeah.

We had a couple uh, you know, a couple good years and Okay, cool. I got me a nice little car that I wanted. I bought a watch I've always wanted. The hell's Okay, what's next? Like, I don't need 10 cars, right? I'm one of those like, what's next? So, that's why I'm like, you know what?

I love the community engagement. It fulfills me. So, I'm going to dump my money in there. And lo and behold, it started bringing me cases. And I'm like, whoa, hold on. what is to this? And I realized, you know, um, blue collar people in Chicago are not dumb. They know if you're fake or not.

Oh, yeah.

And when they see you there and you're you're there with them, they're going to trust you. I have food pantries that send me cases. Now, I have one food pantry that made people give up who they were going to hire and say, "No, Mo's our guy.” He's the community guy.

I really want to ask you about that. I literally a week ago today Mo was at a food pantry doing volunteering with my wife. We were we were literally bringing food to cars that line up and they can't afford groceries and and I do that do that because it fills me up. My wife is she volunteers all the time.

Anyway, what is your approach to the community? What are you doing in the community? Right. Just take us through that. Like what… how are you helping people and as a result which is what you're not seeking but you're actually finding cases which is freaking fantastic because they know you're the real deal.

Correct

What's your approach in the community like? What are you doing on the ground?

Yeah. So what I tell people is this figure out the causes you're very passionate about right and they don't have to be political causes if you like dogs there's dog organizations out there right if you love um if if you're a running fanatic there's running groups out there, right? There's also groups that run for other causes.

So, I always say the first thing you have to do is be genuine. So, in order to be genuine,

pick a cause that you truly genuinely believe in. So, for me, food is a cause for me. I believe food is a human right. I don't believe anyone in America should ever be hungry. And I'm not saying they have to eat filet mignon and lobster. But I don't believe I I I believe in the fact that eating is a human right. That's just my belief. I don't force on anybody else.

So what I do is I went to the food pantry that I knew in my neighborhood that I grew up in. That was the first one I stopped in. And I actually just happened to stop there with someone else. I saw the work they were doing. Loved the work. We did a fundraiser for them. COVID hit and they used that money to stay open when 52 other food pantries

closed.

So then who took notice… Chicago Food Depository, who has a huge budget. They're like, "Damn, this food pantry does great." So they started funding them. They bought him a brand new fridge. They revamped the place and the ladies there, it's a it's a woman-run organization who are amazing. They basically told the food pantry, "Your quality is not good enough to feed my community. You need to up the quality of your food."

They forced the Chicago Food Depository to raise the level of quality of food. So, when I saw that, the money we raised them actually kept them open and then built it going forward.

So, I did that just out of passion and love for them. I didn't know if she was going to start sending cases to me and all of a sudden she'll go, "Hey Mo, uh, one of the people that we help um, what's it called? I'm gonna give them your number."

Chris, they're so I don't even have to do an int. I just need the information. I don't have to sell them. I don't have to sell them on my firm. They're calling to get signed up.

Oh, it's locked in.

I remember after one year of that, I looked at my numbers and I'm like, we made almost 65,000 in attorney's fees from the cases this one food pantry sent. And it was just incredible. I'm like, wow.

So, when I looked and I thought about it deeper. So, I in Chicago, every ne we're a very neighborhood-based city. So, I know this. And in every neighborhood, there's four or five people generally who are not politicians. They're not anybody special, but there's four or five people that everybody in that neighborhood goes to for something.

They need help getting a job. If they need help getting food, they need help getting their lights paid. If someone dies, they need help with the funeral. There's these people in every community.

So, what do I do? I pick communities that I know. I find those people. I say, "Look, I'm an attorney. I like what you're doing. Let me know how I can be an asset to you. And just leave it at that.

Sometimes I'll just come and say, "Hey man, let me come check you out." I'll bring lunch. We sit down. What is it that you do?

Once you find out what you do, okay, how are you funding this? Are you getting resources? And once I know that, I can say, "Look, I know so and so politician. I know this nonprofit that gives funding out for this. Let me connect you with them. Hey, like this food pantry, they were behind on their rent.

You know what, Chris? I cut them a $1,000 check, right? We can do that. And I'm I'm speaking to lawyers here and not in an arrogant way. I say that to say like don't be afraid to cut those checks, guys, okay? Like don't be we we do well enough, you know, you can cut that check. And that did wonders for me.

I mean, my return on that is crazy. So I find communities like for example, Pilson uh as a community in Chicago. I I love the community. I I do a lot of work there. It's um predominately Hispanic.

Uh they had a rough outing this year. So, what did I do?

Do you speak Spanish or no?

No, my staff does. I don't.

Okay, got it.

Um, so I went and bought them like a 25-foot Christmas tree for their community.

That's awesome.

And then we had the kids come out, color the ornaments. I'm Muslim. So, we were joking. It's like I'm the Muslim Santa, right? We don't even celebrate. It was the Muslim Santa. That was the joke.

That's awesome.

They call me Abogado Mo over there, right? The attorney Mo. Uh, so like they know Abogado Mo got us the Christmas tree and Chris, did I get any, you know, calls from there right away?

No.

No, right.

But when I go to the community or I I go spend money there, hey, Abogado Mo, like they they know.

So build those relationships. Now, you do traditional marketing to bring in cases now, but these long-term branding plays are there forever, right? So, you could stop the the button on a paid marketing, you're done. But this food pantry, I got them for life.

Yes.

For free, technically, right? Do I help out? Sure. But I'm never spending a ton because they never ask for a ton. So, I always tell people first, find your passion. There's plenty of people. Americans are some of the most giving people in the world.

Like, I won't go into a rabbit hole on that. I say that to say whatever your cause is, I guarantee you there's a group organization or something here in your city that's really focusing in on that cause. Find them. Just show up, dude. If they have an event, you don't have to pay for anything. But if they have a paid event, buy the highest ticket.

I sponsored um one of my staff. I was joking with him like, you know, what are you doing this weekend? He was laughing. He's like, "Oh, I'm kind of a dork. We have these like Dungeon and Dragon tournaments." I said, "Great. I'm going to sponsor it." He's like, "What?" I said, "How many people are there?" He's like, "10 to 15." Great. I'm buying all the food and all the drinks for that tournament.

That's cool.

My staff was looking at me weird, like, "What?" I said, "Hey, dork get in accidents, too, right?" Like, that was the joke in office. Like, dorks get in accidents, too.

What is it? Two, three bucks to order Jimmy John's and drinks and you know, these are simple guys. So, I started doing that. Lo and behold, three months later, one of them got in an accident. I made my money back and some. So, dive into these things.

You're not just like going on the surface. You're going deep in the community. I love that. So, what I'm hearing from you, you know, you're a smart dude. You're identifying community leaders who everyone looks to for counsel, advice, guidance, right? Because they're the people who everybody knows. They go to them. That's really smart.

So, you'll just call them. You'll call Bob and say, "Hey, Bob, Mo, you're in the community. You know what's going on like you know what's what's up with you know what's happening today? How can I help?" Is that how you lead? Like how can I help?

So, sort if I have to, but I built a wide enough not work in Chicago where I could generally say, "All right, this is the Southeast side. I know somebody out Southeast or if I don't, I know a friend that knows someone from Southeast."

Yeah.

Yo, can you put that call in? Can you do a group text with me?

Yeah.

If I can do that, I always start with that.

Yeah.

Um, but if I have done it before where… So, I don't like to cold call. What I do is I'll go look them up. Oh, they got an event coming up. It's a little small popup. I'm just going to show up. Hey man, I'm Mo Ramadan. Oh, I'll just show up. So, that's why I tell lawyers, you guys don't want to put the time in.

That's the problem with lawyers. I hear from lawyers all the time who call me and want, oh, how do you do it? I said, time? Well, I'm busy. That's an excuse.

I have four kids. I run a staff of nine. I'm out there. What do I do? I find time. I sacrifice some other things, right?

Yeah.

But I'm busy is I've learned this the hard way and I've said this to myself. The I'm busy is an excuse. If you want to do it, you'll find time.

Yeah.

That's the problem with lawyers. They don't want… they don't have time to invest. Well, you know, everything takes time and effort. So, um even with marketing, like they want to just pay and well, no, you got to look at it daily. You have to review it. You have to uh listen to your phone calls. You have to review your intake. Takes time, you know.

So, it really just takes effort. But yeah, uh Chris, I used to show up. I used to see like friends of friends on Facebook. Oh, grand opening for their business. I used to be one of like five, six people there. Guess who they remember? The guy that came to their grand opening when there was five, six people when their other true friends didn't even show up.

And I would show up and I would buy, you know, whatever it was from them. It was never a lot. What I remember one lady, she did a pop-up. She was selling like soap and like all this lotion stuff and all that. I didn't need it, but I spent like 40 bucks. This lady still calls me till this day. She sent me at least three, four clients. Why? Because she remembered the dude that showed up to my grand opening.

It's simple things like that, Chris. It's just effort. Find them and show up. I always tell people the number one thing a lawyer can ever do for a community is show up. And don't you don't have to show up as a lawyer. I just show up as Mo.

Yeah. Yeah.

Who happens to be a lawyer? Everyone's going to ask you what you do eventually. I never tell them. I don't even wear my gear sometimes.

Yeah.

Cuz they're going to come up to, hey, who are you? Mo. Oh, you're Mo the lawyer. I've had that time. Oh, I've seen you on Instagram.

Which brings me in my other thing. All of this, Chris, is content.

Oh, 100%.

You take it, you put it up there, and people see now, oh man, Mo's really in the community. Oh, like I had people call me. I saw you handing out free food. We used to I teamed up with an organization. Uh, we handed out 400 free meals. People remember who fed the community.

So, show up, give effort, be your true self, and give it time and watch what happens.

That's really good. That's super helpful practical stuff. Anyone can do that. So, what I'm hearing, you're a bit, you got four kids, you're running a business. I'm going to guess that you're dialed in on your time management and your systems because otherwise, like, you don't have the time to go outside the office, right?

You're setting stuff up so Mo the face of the business, right? You're the visionary. You're growing this thing. So, you're intentionally creating space for yourself. Sounds like you're not putting fires out every day. You know, you probably have, you know, other people helping you, you know, with that. And that's that's that's important.

One thing I led off here, I said, "Hey, I Googled randomly person Julie, you were you're the top, but tomorrow you could be down at 25 with Google. You don't have control over that.

You don't know. It's like you're almost like buying it's almost like we're buying the digital stuff right now with community stuff. That's lifetime equity like that's lifetime trust relationship. Google can never bring that down. And that's stuff that's an investment that you're building in the community for yourself, but also more importantly for others because when you, as you know, when you serve, you gain. And you're not serving to gain, but you're obviously gaining because people are seeing that, you know, you're a good dude and you're showing up.

You know, Christmas trees and food and impact and like that's what we got to do. And that's what lawyers don't do. A lot of lawyers know more. It's like, yeah, I could go to that event, but like why bother? Like why? I could just kind of chill home. You got to get out, man. You got to have to be intentional.

Create systems, have good people, process, time management. Then you can go like I don't do Fridays any I don't work Fridays. I'm going to volunteer more.

Right. Yep.

And so like going to you know and it's very humbling when you go to a food pantry. It's like you're sometimes I'm gonna get real with you. I want to cry because it's like oh my god like I'm so…

Yep.

And it's gotten much worse. I feel so amazing to contribute. But it's like I literally am you get emotional because it's real, man. You're See, like you and I, we're lawyers. We're sensitive lawyers. We know what's going on out there. There's a lot of lawyers have no idea. There's struggle, right? And we're sensitive to that.

So, how can you represent them if you don't know what they're going through is what I tell attorneys, right? You can't represent them. And you know, I I constantly remind my staff, we have to be more patient right now. People are hurting more than they have before. They're going to be frustrated. How do I know this? I'm in the communities. And my greatest selling point to clients, Chris, is you know if you hire me, our money is going back in your community.

Yeah, that's great.

So why wouldn't you why wouldn't you hire a lawyer that you know cuz you came to me because you saw me invested in your community. I don't have to prove it to you. You saw me there. So if you if you use our firm, you know the money's going back.

How many other lawyers in this area do you see in your community in, you know, sweatpants, a hoodie, and Jordans, right? Like how many of them. You're not and I and I sell that and I don't care how some lawyers get offended. That's your problem.

But you know at the end of the day I show up and people know who show up. So um yeah it's it's it's a great selling point cuz people especially in blue collar cities and I always tell lawyers in smaller towns you should be crushing that just by showing up. You should be absolutely crushing that.

It's true. It's true because, you know, there's no question there's big big firms coming into, you know, already in Chicago, already in Boston. So, it's just going to get tougher. So, like, you know, as as a local lawyer, how can you stand out?

We just talk about social for a second. You brought that up a little bit. So, like, you know, I do the same thing like I I I believe like, you know, you're doing pajama drives, you're doing, you know, feeding the people. I'll put that on social, not to promote, but it's like I did this and it really felt good today.

And like and and I'm genuine because I come from that lineage, man, of like struggle and and and and homelessness and addiction. So it's like I got that street credit. I want some lawyer to show up with pizzas.

You know what I'm saying? Like you're doing the work and it's jumps off the page like this guy know this guy Chris is legit and so but can you just talk about your social, right?

I know you're very you know prolific on social. Is it you running your social the people that?

Yeah. So, I control most of it. I do have an in-house videographer on payroll. Um, and we do a lot of different stuff, which I'll tell you another thing we do with that. Uh, besides my content. So, what I've used my videographer for is similar to this.

You know, there's a lot of organizations. Yo, you guys need content. I'm going to send my guy out for free. He's on me.

Oh, wow.

So, what does that do? That gives me access to them. So, now I get in. Now I'm in some really big organizations this year in Chicago because they saw our content and they're like, "Oh, wow. You're going to do that?" I'm like, "Yeah, we'll do your whole thing for you. Just let us show up." And now they're like, "Oh, we'll make you a sponsor. We'll put your stuff up." So on and so forth.

But how I originally started was I was about 3 four years into my firm. I had no money to market. I had no money to advertise. Um, and I was really getting frustrated and I and I started going some other attorneys who now looking back at it probably weren't the right attorneys to ask.

But the sense I got was, "Oh, just basically wait your turn." Like, you know, you'll eventually build a book of business. And I'm like, "Hey, dude, I'm not built like that." Like, I grew up on hustlers. We don't wait for an opportunity to come. Like, that was the dumbest thing to me. I'm like, and I told the lawyer once, I'm like, "What are you talking about?" Like, wait for what?

So, um, I just started doing Facebook post just every day. So what I started doing was like I would go to court and I would do this like long dramatic post and people knew I was being like facetious and joking a little bit but it would be like a misdemeanor and I would you know the judge slammed the thing and people knew I was joking but it was funny and people started liking the story. So I would joke about the stories and it started doing well right and and people like would start following and they would they would comment and I started seeing like man we never got to see what lawyers are really like. Like this is cool. I'm like, "All right."

So, I remember um I was getting to a breaking point and I said, "You know what? I was still doing the image thing. I did that early, Chris. I followed the script." Okay. I had a suit and tie. I had bookcases behind me. I was very stiff, you know. And Yes. And I remember like four years in I'm like, "This is not working. If I'm going to go out, I'm going out on my own."

So, uh I dropped the suit. I put on a hoodie and, you know, pants and some Jordans. I did a couple videos. People loved it. And then I did my first uh what we call a hype video. So, I brought in a professional videographer.

Um, we did like slow motion. I rented like a Uber black. I was getting like my shoe shine. But here was the kicker. Um, I put Kanye West Power on there. So it was it was a hip-hop song which lawyers at this is my seven eight years ago you know lawyers weren't doing it in TikTok was not around yet. Instagram was still just pictures.

So it ruffled a lot of feathers because a lot of lawyers hated me for it. I got a lot of blowback. I'm not even going to say the things they said.

Wow.

A lot. And but what I noticed the video did phenomenal. People loved it. And I said hold on. Why do I give a s*** what these lawyers think? I care what the people think. And I said, you know what? Let me test run this.

I did another one the next month and I put even more hip-hop song. And this time I was in another community. There was graffiti in the background. I was in the alleyways. Like I did the green, right? I'm like, right? Why? Because those of us from Chicago know this is the real Chicago. It's not the Sears Tower. It's not the bean. This is the real Chicago, right? The local Italian beef joint. You know, the local hot dog stand. This is real Chicago.

So that was the image I was giving. And Chris like I remember like I did two of those. I would be walking in like my neighborhood now and people like, "Oh, when's the next one coming out?" I'm like, "Next one." In my head. I'm like, "I didn't even plan on one."

Yeah. Yeah. Check it out next month. It's coming out. I read I called. I said, "Hey, you have to come back, dude. We have to do another one."

So I started doing those every month. And what I noticed was authenticity rules the game.

Oh yeah.

That was the number one thing that's carried me ever since. And this is what I tell lawyers. This is my number one pet peeve of lawyers is I meet so many who are amazing people who do phenomenal killer work, who actually really care for their clients, great personalities, but as soon as the camera goes on, they become this like weird robotic person.

And the the legal world has a major PR problem right now. And we suck at PR. And the reason it bothers me is I know so many great lawyers who are doing kickass work for their clients. We're fighting Uber right now. We're fighting the good fight. But people don't know this, right?

And we do such a terrible job. Why? In my opinion, law school teaches you to be vanilla. Don't stand out. Play the game. I was told that in law school. Play the game.

And I learned, you know, that game that people don't want that game. It's 2026 now. People want authenticity. Show your problems. Show that you like I show I'm a diehard Bears fan. I'm a season ticket holder. I show that all the time. My best video last year was a random video. I talked about going to Lambeau Field. I'm at 600,000 views on just a random video. I flipped my phone and just told my experience as a Bears fan going to Lambeau.

But lawyers like, "Well, how does that relate to law?" Easy. I'm relating to every Chicagoan in the city that hates Green Bay Packers. They all hate them. We all hate them. They hate us. That's a Chicago thing, right?

So, I'm relating to people as the Chicago attorney through the things that real true Chicagoans experience. So, get rid of this fake perception of being a lawyer. Be yourself. And the content is whatever the hell you want it to be. Just don't be scared to flip up your phone. Don't be scared what other lawyers are going to say. Yes, your friends are going to make funny jokes in the comments. They did it to me and now they're all asking me to highlight their business.

Yeah.

Right. So, that's my advice to lawyers is in 2026, not only does authenticity win, I think it's a requirement. The scripted image of lawyers in the 70s and 80s that worked no longer works in today's era. And social media is free, guys. Like, why would you miss an opportunity?

You could batch. You could shoot once a month and have your whole there's a lot of ways. So the whole idea of I'm busy again I hear it a lot with lawyers on social. I'm busy. I'm busy. You're full of s… All you need is one to two hours a month. And I always tell people that lawyers that tell me that if you can't spend two hours a month to market your business, you don't deserve running a business. I'm sorry, but that's the honest to God truth. So get to work. It's not hard.

No, I love that. Um you know, authenticity because that's my deal, right? That's really what I lean into. When you, as I know, you know, when you create a lot of content, you get better at content.

If you're being a fake lawyer, you can only go so deep on that content. When you keep it real, you can go real deep and you get good at content. You're like, okay, I understand like and you can't go wrong being authentic. But then you get a little bit, how can I even be more authentic?

How can I make this more me and who I am as a person? Because that's a magnetic attraction people are going to have. you're gonna be sticky and remember they remember you. Um as opposed to the stiff guy, you know, gal like banging at, you know, the drama in front of a courthouse like boring. Who wants that? Stop being boring.

Yeah.

It's not hard to do. And you know, we're fathers. We're mothers.

Yeah.

I'm like, relate to your clients, dude. Like you're representing them. They're fathers and mothers like we are, right? They're fans of sports like we are. They love going out to eat like we do. and show them like I have so many people that come in and say I hired you because man I felt comfortable with you. I felt I knew who you were before I walked into your office and people want that now.

So many people will say I looked you up on three to four different places before I called you. They do that now.

So the shift is this Chris is back in the days when there was no real advertising mediums the lawyer was the star of the show. In today's world, when they can contact 20 lawyers and a 3-second Google search, you're no longer the star, buddy. Yeah. The client is now the star. Oh, yeah. That's just the honest to god truth.

So, you have to relate to them to wheel them in. This is not the 70s where you could be the one guy on the yellow pages and you own the entire state.

Yes.

It doesn't work like that anymore. They have the option of 20, 30 lawyers in a two second Google search. You're cooked if you're not doing something to relate to them. It's just the way it is. I didn't make the rules, but that's just how it is now. Marketing is different for lawyers now. It's not what it is even 10 years ago.

No. Either adapt or die. Like you're either going to like get on this or not.

That's it.

I mean, well, Mo, I really appreciate you. You just dropped a lot of knowledge. How can people get in touch with you?

Absolutely. Um Instagram is uh probably the best way. Uh moethelawyer on Instagram. Um, if anybody wants to email me, wants to talk more, I take calls with lawyers all the time. Uh, my email is [email protected].

Uh, Google attorneys of Chicago, you can find me there. So, any lawyers want to dive further in anything we talked about, I do it all the time. Please reach out Instagram, email, call the office, whatever is easiest for you, and I'll be happy to schedule whatever it is.

I love it. And before I forget, you mentioned a little while ago about mentoring younger lawyers, law students, and I encourage practitioner. Mentor, use your knowledge. Help help the next generation coming up because the more you give, the more you get. I say that every freaking day on this podcast. Mo, thank you so much. Love also… love the authenticity.

Thanks, Chris. Keep growing and growing and I love your success, man. Appreciate everything you stand for, brother. We, like I said, we need more of uh you in this industry. So, keep doing what you're doing. I really love it.

All right. Back at you, brother. Thank you, buddy.

That's it for this episode of the Early Show. Be sure to check out more episodes of our show on Spotify, Apple Podcast, and the Answering Legal YouTube channel.