The Secret to a Full Referral Pipeline (That Most Lawyers Miss)

Welcome to episode 51 of The Earley Show podcast, hosted by personal injury attorney Christopher Earley! For this conversation, Chris is joined by Delisi Friday, Founder and Owner of First Call Friday.

Check out the episode below. You can also enjoy it on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Delisi and Chris break down how law firms can turn rejected cases into long-term relationships, why reciprocity is the foundation of a strong referral network and what to do when referrals aren’t being returned. Delisi also shares why every lawyer can build a podcast audience and the real ROI behind sending thoughtful gifts.

About our guest:

Delisi Friday has worked 20 years in the legal industry, and is in the top 1% of LinkedIn users in the legal industry, and ranked top 50 in legal in the United States. She has worked in four 8-figure businesses, and spent 7 years as a marketing director of an 8-figure boutique PI firm.

First Call Friday was founded by Delisi in 2025 to help attorneys and law firms grow their book of business through strategic, referral-based marketing. The company is about real relationship building among lawyers, referral partners, current clients, and former clients.

Learn more about First Call Friday here!

Connect with Delisi on LinkedIn here!

Check out Delisi's recent appearance on the Everything Except The Law podcast!

About The Earley Show:

For nearly 20 years, Christopher Earley has successfully led a personal injury law firm in Boston. On the Earley Show, a new podcast launched in the summer of 2023, Christopher and other standout attorneys will be sharing their secrets to success, and discussing the law office management habits that have allowed their practice to thrive. If you’re looking to make better use of your time, increase daily productivity or even just spend less time answering emails, you’ll definitely want to tune in to The Earley Show.

Learn more about the Earley Law Group here!

Check out the previous episode of The Earley Show here!

The Earley Show is a part of The Answering Legal Podcast Network.

Interested in learning more about Answering Legal? Click here to learn more about 400 minute free trial!

This podcast is produced and edited by Joe Galotti. You can reach Joe via email at [email protected].

Episode Transcript:

Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of the Early Show sponsored by our friends over at Answering Legal. I'm your host Chris Earley. I'm an injury lawyer in Boston and as you know on each and every episode of the Earley Show I bring you the very best and very very brightest from the legal industry and today is no exception.

We have the one, the only Delisi Friday from the great state of Texas. Delisi understands referrals. She's super knowledgeable about this area. I know that, you know,us lawyers, we hear the word referral, our ears, you know, perk up and we start really listening. So, as always, make sure you sharpen those pencils. I'm sure we'll have plenty of writer downers on this episode of the Earley Show.

Delisi, thank you for coming on. How are you today?

Hi, Chris. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.

Delisi and I just had a terrible… my internet was so bad just now. We had to abort the mission. We were five minutes in and it caved. The internet just crashed. So, thankfully, we're only five minutes and we didn't lose a whole lot. So, we're now back and better than ever.

So, um you and I haven't actually met in person, but I see you on social truly getting after it. We're going to talk about social, you know, LinkedIn, Instagram.

Um you worked for years, I know with Michael Cowen, Michael and I were on a panel at PIMCON. It's a small world, right?

So, I just want to welcome you to the show and it's just so nice to see you and have you, you know, for a little session today.

Brilliant. Thank you.

Could you, for anyone who's not familiar with you, could you just introduce yourself a little bit? Um, before we kind of get into what you do, would you mind just sharing kind of, you know, coming up, your parents, sort of influences, how you sort of started because I think that really helps us understand, you know, where we are today.

Yes, absolutely. Um, and I think it's 100% why I became the person I became. So, my father is a trial lawyer. I was born the day my dad became a lawyer. And I feel like that means I was destined to work in this legal industry. For years, I thought I would practice law with him.

My first job at 14 was in his law firm answering phones. And so I've worked for 20 plus years in the legal industry because my first job was in his law firm. And he is a huge part of why I love the legal industry and why I love referrals so much.

My dad is a criminal defense and personal injury lawyer. And so he grew his law firm based on referrals. Everything that I teach and everything that I believe in, I've been doing quite literally since I was a kid or I learned from my experience working with Michael Cowen.

I worked with Michael Cowen of Cowen Rodriguez Peacock for seven years. We created the Trial Lawyer Nation podcast together. And so one of the things I loved is after I decided I wasn't going to become a lawyer because I am a horrible loser and I watched my dad in court so many times. We would do pre-trial motions and you just go, go, go. I would still be upset we lost one of the first ones and he was already arguing the third. I'm like, "Dad, I can't do this. I can't do this."

Um, and when I worked with Michael Cowen, that's where I realized I love referrals so much because Michael and I grew that firm from seven to eight figures 100% on referral marketing, all marketing to other lawyers. And he's the reason why I knew that was my passion.

And when I left Michael, I went to go be chief of staff to RJon Robins, the attorney who created How To Manage A Small Law Firm. He is an 8 figure serial entrepreneur. So, How To Manage A Small Law Firm is one of his businesses. And I learned and have a deep respect for what it takes to manage a law firm efficiently because it's a lot. I didn't see that when I was working with Michael. I learned that when I was working with RJon.

And after two years there, I realized my calling was to start my business and just help lawyers with referrals because I missed it. I missed referral marketing. I missed working with lawyers when it comes to creating relationships with their clients and with other lawyers.

And there's no way I would have started my business if my dad didn't have the role that he has and inspire me the way he did because of his law firm. There's no way I would have done this if Michael Cowen hadn't showed me how much referrals can change a business and grow a business. And there's no way I would have started my business if I hadn't worked for RJon Robins because I had no idea there was an entrepreneur inside of me. And there is.

And so now the only thing that makes me happy in life is talking to lawyers all day long about referrals. And that's so nerdy. And that's how I became the person I am.

Love it. Love it. You have good energy. You're clearly where you should be, right? Some people just they're just not doing what they should be doing. feel like you have found at least you know picking up your energy which is quite positive and and bright is that you clearly are doing passionate work that speaks to you right and that that jumps off the page.

Can we just go back to dad for a second were there look you know he's a really experienced trial lawyer businessman were there like one or two nuggets that you took from him that have really sort of influenced how you do business how you operate.

Yes the first thing I will tell every single a lawyer and I learned this from my dad and I learned this at 14 years old and have been doing it since I was 14 years old is every time a client calls your law firm you are fortunate because every phone call is the potential to change someone's life and we should never take that for granted.

And so what I learned at 14 and what I teach every day is every time someone calls your law firm if you cannot help them. Please put them in touch with someone who can.

Yeah.

Every lawyer can turn a rejected case into a relationship either with that potential new client and or a referral partner, hopefully both, by pointing that person in the right direction and being a true connector in this world. And so I learned that early on because my dad would teach me answering the phones is the heart and soul of this law firm.

You are the first interaction they have with our law firm. It has to be positive and you have to help every single person because they're calling us asking for help. And if we can't help them, we put them in touch with the lawyers we knew who are doing a really great job. And so I would have a list.

If someone called for a family law case and we didn't do family law, I knew exactly who I was referring that case to. If someone called for a MedMal case, I knew exactly who I was referring that case to. And my dad instilled that in me early on that I see how important it is to the people who call your law firm. I see how important it is for the referral relationships that you're creating. And that was huge for me.

The second one was how you treat people. My dad is a trial lawyer who's gone to trial over 200 times on the civil and criminal side. And one of the things that I learned very early on because I went to trial with him.

Last trial I did with my dad was a murder case. And when I went to trial with him, one of the things I really respect about lawyers is when someone goes into the courtroom and they treat opposing counsel with respect while also standing up for their client.

I think you can be an advocate for your client and still show respect to opposing counsel. And I think that's so important. And I watched my dad do it in courtroom. And after a hearing was over, I would watch him shake hands with opposing counsel and they would create relationships with each other.

And I used to ask my dad as a kid, wait a second, that's not what I see on TV. On TV, y'all argue with each other and you're so rude. What's going on? And my dad would tell me, "I'm here to fight for my client, but I'm not here to be a jerk to this guy. I will fight very hard and do my job, but it does not mean we can't be respectful." And I really appreciated that.

The courtroom staff, like the clerks, everyone in the courtroom when I would talk to them as a kid would say, "That's one of the things I love about your dad. Your dad fights really hard, but he will always be respectful. And not every lawyer is that." And I realized just how important that is for your reputation, but also to create relationships with opposing council because you can.

And also just for the legacy that he leaves behind. Everyone always tells me what a great legacy my father has and I'm so proud of that. But I got to see it and I witnessed how important that is. And my dad would tell me, "It takes years to build a legacy, but it takes seconds to lose it. Do not lose it, Delisi. And I try to do that every single day of my life because I never want to let my dad down. Never want to let my dad down.

Um, but I also think that's so important. It's so important when it comes to creating relationships and just the legacy that you want to have for yourself.

Well, I love that. So, first of all, those two lessons, they don't cost a dime, right? To answer the phone the correct way to people treat people with love care and concern and to to promote others to to help people along have good comport yourself well have good relationships with people shake people's hands after you get you know they maybe kick you in the in the face and and and beat you up so yeah those two things I really like because they're universal and timeless.

But I know you know and I know that the phone is fumbled more times than not right um AI technologies is going to be a nice uh add-on which is happening you know obviously right now on the market place. But a lot of lawyers you know phone trees. Or like law office. For years Delisi, I was like law office. Because that’s a… monkey see, monkey do. That's how we that's how we do things we're very copycat profession and for years I was doing that and it's like are you I can't I look back and I cringe at that.

But to the practitioner you need to have a steady I call loving warm welcome welcome. And my my team, we use the same words. Good morning. Welcome to Earely Law Group. How may I best help you? Really intentional. That sets the tone because I'm like, these guys aren't called scary lawyers. Just talk about relationships.

And and first, I want to back up that law that client who you quote unquote, you know, reject. You can't help because they have a criminal case and you're a real estate lawyer. You put them on your list, put them in your database, market to them, continue the conversation. You probably spend a few bucks to generate that lead. You can monetize that at some point. There's a value. Um and more importantly, just helping the person out is a good thing to do. A relationship, you know, showing up.

So, I love those things because some of our listeners, Delisi, some are, you know, really wealthy and some don't have two nickels struck together, right? So, no matter where you are in your journey, you can do those two things and get going. So, I love that stuff. So, thank you.

It's free and you gave a great example. Put them on your list. If let's just say one of your listeners doesn't have a list. They're like, "Delisi, I don't have the budget for that. I don't have a person.

You know what you could also do? That's free. Follow up with that person and say, "Hey, Chris, I know you called our law firm and we couldn't assist you, but we to put you in touch with Bob's office. We just want to check in. Was Bob able to help you and you got the help that you needed.”

Oh man, Chris is going to be your biggest fan forever because then you followed up to make sure you got the help you needed. And that is care that an ad can't buy. It's also free to do.

Absolutely. I'm thinking about Ryan McKeen. He talks about the book Unreasonable Hospitality.

Oh, it's I love that book. I love that book. Right there. Right there behind me.

So, how can you be unreasonably hospitable on the telephone, right? How can you go above and beyond and almost like shock people how great you treat them? It's not hard in the legal industry because we have such a low reputation, be honest with you, especially a lot of personal lawyers on this call um listening that the bar is pretty low.

Oh, we don't have to do a whole lot. I preach this all day long, Delisi. I am always pounding the the the table because I'm obsessed with the phone and treating people well. It's so freaking easy, but it's so easy to screw up. That's why we need good team members. But I'm sure we'll get into that.

So, sounds like you cut your teeth. You got experienced with Cowan with Robins, right? Like these different kind of dudes, right? Doing things differently. Your dad did things his, you know, differently, too. So, these different universities you attended, right? And now you've started your own business and I see you helping people, right? Helping lawyers. Oftentimes we all we need this help.

Could you talk about I want to hear not just things that work, but could you see some things that you see lawyers do that are mistakes that kind of screw up their efforts to really gain more referrals and just kind of like again shoot themselves in the foot basically without even knowing it?

Yeah. Um, the easiest one I can tell you, um, so for everyone who's listening, there's a book behind me that I just started rereading again called Endless Referrals by Bob Burg. And there are a lot of people who will share this advice in addition to Bob Burg. And the advice is it's not the quantity of people you meet because you want to create referral relationships, it's the quality.

I would much rather a lawyer say, "Delisi, I'm going to go network because I want to create referral relationships." And that lawyer says, "I made a new friend." Versus the lawyer who comes back and says, "Oh my gosh, Lisa, you got 10 business cards." And I'm like, "10 business cards? How many actual conversations did you have to get those 10 business cards?"

I would much rather a lawyer go to, let's just say, a bar association happy hour or a legal conference. You ymentioned PIMCON. I'd much rather someone go to PIMCON and say, "Delisi, I made three great friends." Than someone come back and say, "Delisi, I made 30." Because I want quality relationships. I want people to find their tribe. I want people to have a real connection versus trying to make friends with everyone.

And so I would say that's my number one piece of advice is don't go out there trying to just hit a certain number. Go out there and say I want to create a real relationship with someone and create a real relationship with one person, two person, three, four. But don't try and say I'm going to do it with 40 people this year. Okay. Well, that's not sustainable.

No.

And how many real connections are you going to have with people? I bet that's going to feel very superficial.

Yeah.

And they're not going to really get to know who you are. And you're not going to really get to know who they are either.

I love that quality relation because you can only go so deep with 400 people as opposed to like 14 like really deep relationships who are going to remember you. And and so you just mentioned Bob Burg and you know I like to do my homework before I have a guest on and I was thinking to myself but you know you and referrals I just read reread this amazing book by Bob Burg The Go-Giver which I talk about all the time.

It’s back there too. Uh-huh.

Great minds think alike whatever the practitioner whatever you're doing today buy that book Amazon, The Go-Giver, Endless Referrals, anything that Bob Buerg has written, you are wise to pick up because I'll be honest with you, I talked to Delisi earlier about like how law office and just sort of, you know, uh very primitive law uh law firm operations. I was a taker and I was like, how can I get referrals? How can I like do this? How can I get more cases? But I'm a little bit longer in the tooth now and I finally have, you know, discovered fire, right? Like it came down. I'm seeing that it's givers truly gain, right?

And I'm a late comer, late bloomer here, but I encourage the practitioner, whatever age you're at, you got to give to people. You have to share. And I I think that's like that's essential.

I want to mention a couple of books before I forget. I wrote down. Never Eat Alone. That's a book by John Morgan. I talk about that all the time. He recommended that book.

Influence, a really good book by Robert Cialdini. It’s about you know the element of reciprocity. Which fascinates me right you know and and your you know your ears perked up as well like we talked about that could you talk about reciprocity and how that sort of you know speaks to you and what you do to drive relationships. Positive relationships

I love that you brought that up because if you didn't I totally was okay here's a perfect example um also on that bookshelf is a book called Um This Is <arketing by Seth Godin and Seth Godin talks about it but so do a lot of people. Reciprocity is so important. There is actual psychology behind reciprocity and how it relates to having a very full referral pipeline.

And I'll give you a timely example. We're recording this a week before Christmas.

Yeah.

And so I'll give you a Christmas example. You know how during the holidays you have people who stop by your office and they give you a present, but you don't have a present for them? It happens, right? I feel horrible in my soul when someone gives me a gift and I'm like, "Oh, dang it. I don't have anything for them. I feel uncomfortable. Literally uncomfortable because I want to reciprocate that gift with another gift."

And so that's the law of reciprocity. You want to reciprocate with something else. Now, take the holiday gift example and apply that to referrals in a law firm. If I am sending your office personal injury cases and I'm referring my cases to you and I'm a family law lawyer, I bet if you get a case referral from me every month, there's going to be a point where you're looking at your new cases coming in, you're like, "Oh man, Delisi has been sending us cases and I haven't sent her anything back. What can I do to send her something back? I don't have a divorce case to send to her. Maybe I can introduce her to another one of my friends and say, hey, Samantha, I want to introduce you to my friend Delisi. She does family law and I haven't had an opportunity yet to refer a case to her, but I want to introduce the two of you. I think you could have a great relationship.” And maybe your friend Samantha can refer a family law case to Delisi. But there is a feeling inside of us that we want to reciprocate.

So you mentioned uh The Go-Giver.

Yeah.

It's that same philosophy. If I give give give, you should if you have a soul want to give back. You just naturally want to. So apply that to referrals. But here's the other part. It's also a way for us to see who's aligned with what we believe in because there are people who aren't the same see this as a yin and yang relationship.

Yeah.

And so you can also say in that same vein, if I give give give give and it's been a year and I never get back, is that just one of those people who's a taker like you mentioned? They don't have that feeling of reciprocity. So, you can think about it that way, too. But reciprocity is so key. I'm gonna have to give to get back.

Well, you talk about… You use the word soul twice and I agree. It's like not only do you want to give back to that person, you almost need to because I hate to say this, it's a dirty word, but almost like a debt. I don't like that word, but it's almost like that's how we perceive it internally.

Like you know Delisi gave me this I want to give to her because I'm a human once you share with another human being who did good for me it's like it's just lowhanging fruit it it's just any practitioner can instantly do that.

(Ad break)

You know, I'll be honest with you. So then I don't know what the Bob Burgs would say to the lawyer who's referred out 104 cases over 10 years to a lawyer who has not sent back one case. I'll be I'll be honest with you, that's tough for me. I'm kind of like, do are we not like vibing here? Like do they not understand? Like how do you handle what's your take on that? It's just so drastic.

I actually hear this a lot more now that I have my business because I experienced that with Michael's office. Um you would have a relationship where someone would give like for example I I had to create those relationships in Michael's office. So what we had at our firm is if someone sent us a work injury case and we didn't handle work injury, I needed to create relationships with lawyers who did because I never wanted to be a dead end. I wanted to be a connector and I knew how important that was.

Well, I'd look at my numbers as everyone should and I would say to myself, well, wait a second here. I have sent six cases to this law firm in the last year and I've never gotten a case back. But here's the mistake people make. Did you ask for it? Did you ask for it?

Let's assume they asked. Let's assume they asked.

Um then you're then you're at a point where you have a decision to make. Let's assume you asked and I said, "Hey, Chris, I've sent you six cases this year. I would really love if this could be a reciprocal relationship where you send some cases to me by any chance. Do you get any family law cases that you can send my way?”

If you say no, I can't hold that against you because you didn't have anything to send. I now have a decision to make where I say, “Well, do I still refer to Chris because I know he's got a great law firm. I know he's going to treat the clients right and I really know, like, and trust him. I'm gonna continue to do it and just know when the time comes, Chris is going to send me a case.”

Yeah.

And I have to make that decision. I could also make a decision to say, "Okay, I understand. You know, you do personal injury and so I'm not expecting a bunch of family law cases to come my way because you advertise you do personal injury."

Yeah.

I could then say, "Could you do me a favor? I really want to grow my network and increase the amount of referrals to my law firm. Is there someone you recommend that I meet and can you introduce me to someone in your network who you think I would have a great connection with?” Because I still find value in connecting with other people. And so while you may not be able to refer me a case, if you introduce me to someone who could potentially send me a case or you introduce me to someone who could extend my referral relationships further, to me that's still worth a lot and and I don't need the case because that relationship will bear fruit.

No question. That's like a long that's a big way, you know, that's a long game approach. I like that. It's not so narrow-minded like, well, he this is tit for tat. Like, you know this, right? So many lawyers look at it like that. Like, it's it's not it's bigger than that. It's it's more sophisticated.

I want to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I want to just go back quickly. I just want to mention to the audience. I sometimes have a case that, you know, it may be for some reason I want to refer it out. We've developed a case, but for some reason I think it's best… I really am obsessed with lawyers who jump on the referral and they get right back.

I mean look, we're busy. We're in court. We're at deposition. We're on vacation, wherever. But like I have lawyers that get back to me like four or five days later like, "Oh yeah, I'll take a look at that." Like, no, no, no. I like go-getters, you know, who jump on cases. I just want to share that, you know, align yourself to practitioner, align yourself with lawyers who jump on things, who are proactive.

And I'm trying to be realistic, like not everyone's waiting for Earley's email, but like if I'm sending you stuff, I I really need you to be proactive. Anyway, end rant. Thank you.

If anyone is listening to this, I want everyone to know I was nodding my head in agreement the whole time because I completely agree. And what I will add to that is how you do anything is how you do everything.

Yes.

If you're not responding to me right away and letting me know, hey, I'm going to take a few days because I'm going to research something. Hey, I'm going to take a few days because I want to call this expert to have this conversation before I get back to you.

But I’m on it.

That's completely different than the person who ghosts you right away. And I agree with you. I agree with you completely.

But I think those lawyers don't understand that today's consumer is comparing lawyers to Amazon, to AT&T, like fast. So like people don't want to wait around and lawyers have to understand you got to get stuff done quickly.

You mentioned something interesting about with with Michael Cowen and you guys really grew the practice. Could you give us a through by and large through referrals, could you sort of similar to the question about your dad, are there a couple takeaways or a couple things you learned from him and or did with him that really caught fire that that was a success for you guys?

Yes. And I'll tell you, and most people aren't going to do it, but you can also be a testament to this, too. One thing that caught fire uh in 20 was it 16 or 17? We created the Trial Lawyer Nation podcast. And you have your podcast The Earley Show.

Yes.

I am a huge fan of any lawyer creating a podcast for themselves and or their firm because when you create a podcast you get to put content out into the world that you believe in. You get to share your experiences. You get to record this episode one time and it'll live for as many years as you have your podcast out in the world.

People will find it. They'll search it. SEO, AIO, all the terms that haven't even existed yet are going to come out. They will find it. They will listen to it.

And what was really fun for me cuz Michael and I created the Trial Lawyer Nation podcast and I had never done a podcast before. I had zero experience. I didn't know what the heck I was doing. I just didn't want to fail him because I loved him so much and I wanted to succeed.

So, we created the podcast and what was super fun was after enough time, maybe anywhere between like 8 months to 12 months, we started to get podcast fans who would come up to him and say, "Hey, I listen to your show. Hey, thank you for this episode. Hey, the tip you gave about exfoliation letters, I use that every day and it was so eye opening." Whatever the example was.

And it was wonderful to watch how a podcast could create a large network of people who knew who he was and who the firm was. It was so fun to watch how those then turned into referrals. And I share that openly because it's not a secret, but the truth is it takes work. And it takes consistency and that will not pay off in the first 30 days.

No.

You needed to go into that with a giver mindset and say, "I'm here to share.” And not expect anything in return for a solid year. And then after that, you should see some some fruits to that labor or even before then. But don't go into it and say, "I'm only going to do this for three months and then see if I can drive business." No, don't do that. Please don't do that.

Um, and so the podcast…

Okay. I didn't mean to cut you off there. Anything else? I love that. We I really want to get into that in a second. Anything else you want to drop on us that you feel like looking back really worked well for referrals driving the growth?

I would say the thing that drove the growth was when we realized who our key referral partners were and made a decision to nurture those relationships. Because I can promise you, anyone who's listening to this, if you have a referral partner out there, and the only time you check in with them is when you remember and the only time you check in with them is when you have a case update and that's the full extent of you nurturing that relationship. I promise you, if you put a little bit of effort, you can generate more referrals out of that relationship or you can generate more connections with others because that relationship extends further.

And if you just put a little bit of time and energy and effort into developing those relationships and nurturing them more, you can drive more referrals. You can't just think of that relationship as, oh, they'll come in when they come in. Spend some time, devote some time. I promise you can increase your referrals if you pay attention to the people who already refer you business.

I love that. And drill down a little, right, to our list like 80-20 or 90-10, right? What's 10% of the people driving are sending us 90% of those referrals, right? You're really heavy hitter referrals. Let's like get really good at the data, right? I'm sure you guys were just had your arms around all of that.

But I really love the what you talked about with the podcast because you just have to like hit press record and like stop overthinking it like a lot of practitioners do. I talk about this almost every episode. My first guest on this uh podcast was John Morgan and it was the most uncomfortable moment because I didn't know what I was doing and I had John Morgan on the line for about 30 minutes before we could figure out how to hit record. You know what he said? He was like, "It's a pretty long podcast.” It took so much to get him there. I can't even freaking record it.

So, but I didn't we didn't overthink it. Like, oh, like this is, you know, I got a fancy like there's nothing fancy about what I'm doing here, right?

Um, so but but you and Michael got off the ground and you didn't stop at episode nine when you weren't getting, you know, an eight figure case immediately. You just you you did the ugly work of continuing up the hill up the hill and then what happens? There's that sort of that explosive factor, explosive element kind of happens where it's like we got traction.

Let me ask you a question. The practitioner sitting in his office thinking like, I got nothing to talk about. Yeah, I'm a lawyer. I try cases, but like who wants to listen to me do a podcast? I I know there's value to it. I've got this content, but like why should I I don't really have anything to talk about.

What would you say to that lawyer who's sort of like finding reasons to not do a podcast when we know how valuable it is?

Um, those are all excuses. I do not accept them.

No.

Um it's just like when the lawyer says, "I don't want to post on LinkedIn. I have nothing to post on LinkedIn." I'll say, "BS”. Open up your calendar. Let's just talk about what you did this week, and I promise you there's a story in there. There is. There's always a story. There's always something you can share.

And look, if someone tells the exact same story that you do, they're not you. They don't have the same audience. They don't have your name. They don't have your vibe. They don't have your experience. They don't have your personality.

I say the same thing all the time every single day. The only difference is I'm wearing a different shirt and I'm saying it to somebody else, but it's the same thing all the time.

I also know I'm not for everyone. And so the people who listen to me are the people that I'm for. And the people who hear my voice and go, "Oh my god, that lady has way too much energy. She is too much. I can't take it." They're probably listening to somebody else because they resonate with that other person. That's okay.

Your marketing should attract the right people and detract the wrong people.

100%.

And so don't tell yourself, "I'm not going to do this. I have nothing to say. Why would anyone listen?" And instead say, "Why wouldn't I do this? What am I doing to put myself out there and get my message out there?" Because if you're not out there putting your message out there for people to hire you, you're not giving anyone a reason to pick up the phone and call you.

Just do it. That's my advice. Just do it.

I love it. Hit record. Hit post on LinkedIn. And then you almost like find your voice because I found a voice on LinkedIn. I really didn't know what I was doing, but I just kind of kept doing it.

Then you find like who you are like and like oh this is because we have a different voice on Instagram on your on the podcast on LinkedIn. Uh but on the podcast I found my voice. I didn't know what I was doing. But it's like this podcast for entrepreneurial lawyers scaling law firms looking to grow, get more cases, hire good people, have a good life, right? That's what this and you find it. So like just freaking swing the band. Like step up to the plate and take a freaking swing. It's going to be it's going to work out really well.

Like you said, um I want to just give a shout out to um Edventure, right? I know this, you know, you speak the language of, you know, gifting um at a high level, right? You're very sophisticated on this, much better than I am.

What we do is we use adventure. We have a new client box that goes out. Um, with some nice goodies for our brand new clients, really priming them for a good experience.

And now, Delisi, I take the time, even though it's a lot, I write handwritten cards to every client. Just send them a mail. So, they're getting the handwritten card, they're getting texts, emails, something in the in their box.

Most importantly, the book behind you, Scaling The Wall. I sent that to you and I appreciate you having it right up there. Thank you. I send them my book so they know who they're dealing with and they know they signed up for it because like you said we can't be everyone to everyone. So I love that.

Could you talk about gifting? Right. There was that book Giftologology. I think he tragically passed away the author. Is that right or no?

Yes. John Ruhlin passed away last year sadly. Or was it? No, it was this year. It was this year just before the second version of his book came out. Um yes, that was so sad. um his book right behind me.

You got every book under the sun right behind you. Gee, it's like a library.

Chris, I love to read.

Love it. I love it. You're not messing around.

Um but yes, gifting. And that was something you and I talked about and I said, "Let's discuss this on the show.” Because you and I both believe in the power of gifting. And I think there is something really special about gifting to create and nurture relationships with your current clients, your former clients, your current referral partners, future referral partners. There's something about gifting that you stand out, you're memorable and it sticks around.

The boxes that you mentioned that you send out to your clients when they join your firm and hire you. What an experience. You know, you've set the tone. You've given them this box that says, "We care and we appreciate you." And I wish more lawyers did that because it's so special and it creates a relationship.

And I promise unless someone hates everything in the box, they're not going to throw that stuff away. They're going to keep it around, which is what you want. Especially in marketing, I want someone to see something I sent them because it's on their desk every day. I want someone to see something and remember me because I sent it from a place of love.

And so I love gifting for all of those reasons and so many more. I'm curious when you started that in your law firm and that became a part of your onboarding process, what were the things you saw that told you this is going great. This is exactly what I want either from your clients or from your staff.

I'll be honest with you, this is going to sound weird. A lot of clients don't mention it. However, the ones who do are raving lunatics and how much they love it. So, the fact that you don't hear anything doesn't mean it's not a hit.

Yeah.

They may be like, "My lawyer is too busy." Maybe they maybe they don't want to call earlier. I wish they, you know, wouldn't feel that way, but they do. They probably don't feel the need to reach out, but they got the gift.

And the unboxing, you know, Ed Levy, he's who we use. Edventure from Chicago. There's an an experience.

It's like, "Oh, the dude wrote a book." Okay. This is cool. That stuff, like you said, is sticky. It's not going to be discarded. Unless they just hate Earley.

And to be brutally honest, I heard a lawyer say this once, and he was right. It may help to keep a client, right, who maybe for some reason has buyer regret. The moment they sign with you, their cousin Bobby says, "Oh, you hired Earley. You got to call Johnson, right?"

Yes.

The reciprocity angle comes in a little bit. The giving, "Well, but Earley gave me this. Like, maybe he's a decent guy?” Right? That could almost like work against uh attrition on those because that's when we could lose a client the first 90 days. You were just nodding your head please. I think I interrupted you.

So what you just said gave me another example. I imagine because you do that and you're building this relationship with the client. It also allows you and your law firm to be people who make mistakes.

Someone is going to make a mistake somewhere along the way and not return a phone call as soon as the client wanted or something like that. I'm sure the client's going to be slightly more gracious and understanding because you sent a gift like that and you care and you reminded them you're a person.

Absolutely. You're human and you know I talked about this on the Lunch Hour Legal Marketing podcast with Gyi Tsakalakis. It dropped today. About getting on their level, right? Like breaking down these barriers like they think, "Oh, lawyer, you know, he's, you know, I'm intimidated." No, no, we're on the same level here. We're the same. That's wonderful. Marketing is like personalized marketing.

And then I haven't done this, but you could take it up a notch. I know you know about this. At the end of the case, right. “Delisi, thank you so much for being a client. It was a wonderful, you know, privilege to serve you.”

And you know, you have to be careful about hitting people over the head with send me referrals to Lisia or like refer like yeah there's a time and place for that. But that would be another layer I want to bake into the cake is post-case box. Like the dude sent me another box. These boxes are 50 bucks each.

Yeah.

You gotta you got to spend a couple bucks. It's not cheap, but you get what you pay for.

So the lawyer Delisi who has no money, they can't afford that. What would you encourage? They're just getting off the ground. They just started their own firm. They just got to law school, whatever. or they even mid career and they haven't done this yet, like maybe cash is is tight, how can they kind of wow that client beginning to prime them prime the client for a good experience.

So, one of the things that I recommend is after you have settled a case or closed out a case, making sure you stay in touch with the client on two different days.

The anniversary of closing their case, that's an easy one because you know when it's going to happen, and also their birthday. And those are two different touch points.

To the lawyer who doesn't have a big budget, it's easy for you to say, "I'm going to send them a happy birthday card." You either send it yourself or you automate it with something like Handwritten to the lawyer who says, "I can't Delisi, that $3.50 for the birthday card is just not in my budget either. I'm a solo." Then I will say, "Okay, then you know what? You actually have a competitive advantage.” I want you to pick up your phone and I want you to call the client on their birthday and tell them happy birthday. Because if you think about it, when's the last time someone called you on your birthday and told you happy birthday? Everyone sends a text, they send you a message on social media. It's not the same.

Imagine a world where you're a client and your lawyer calls you on your birthday and tells you happy birthday. I'm never gonna forget that.

Never

I'm actually going to go on social media and say, "You know what, you guys? The only person who called me on my birthday was my lawyer.” I would love for someone to tell that story.

100%.

And so, if you don't have the money to even send a card out, pick up the phone. You can develop that relationship with a phone call. And if you hate the phone, fine. Do a text. Send the text. Do something. But the thing is, take the action. Do something to keep that relationship alive. Even if you don't have a budget, you can still take some action. The key is just to take the action.

Well, I like that. And and um you know, I think this goes to get out of your comfort zone. Even if you're not comfortable making the phone call, you just said earlier, and I love that how you do something is how you do everything.

So, if you're not like I'm uncomfortable with using the phone, do it anyway, right? It's like just get over those things because it's night and day. A phone call and a text. But if you're just like just can't do it. A text is better than better than nothing.

You've been dropping all these nuggets. Let's talk about your business, right? Can you talk about what you do, how you help lawyers and ultimately obviously how people can find you, right?

Yeah. So, I help lawyers make friends who refer them cases. And the way I do that is I either do one-on-one consulting with a lawyer or their law firm or their marketing team or a law firm will hire me to come in and do a training to their law firm about how to generate referrals for the lawyers or also for their staff because your staff can help you generate business too.

Definitely.

And in February, I'm going to create an online community because I realized there are a lot of lawyers out there who aren't ready to invest the money on the one-on-one time. However, they do have the money to be a part of a community that also cares about referrals and they want to network with others. So, I want to create an online community in February where I'm bringing all of those people together, doing group trainings, helping them do some office hours and talk through things so I can make myself more available.

Because I realize now I want to change the world and I want to help lawyers all the time, but I also still have the same hours of the day as everybody else. So, if I can do something where I create this group of lawyers who all care about referrals like I do and I help them as a group, they can still learn and they can still apply these things to their law firm and their business and they can also make friends along the way, which is what I want. And so, those are the different ways that I help.

Community, you can't can't go wrong helping people out. How can people reach out? What's the website?

My website is firstcallfriday.com. First is spelled out. And obviously, everyone can follow me on LinkedIn, which is where I'm the most active. I have a Facebook and I have an Instagram, too, but I love LinkedIn because I think there's real power in LinkedIn, especially in the legal community. And so, I recommend LinkedIn as well.

Oh, I love LinkedIn all over it. And first of all, we both just to sort of put a you know, wrap it up. I know um I want to be respectful of your time. We both have great names, right? Early. Call Earley before it's too late. Um, you know, just call Friday. You could go to town with that stuff, right? I love it.

Yes, that's why I named my business. My sister joked with me. She's like, not sure what to do. First call Friday. And I was like, well, yeah, that's why I named it First Call Friday.

Love it. That's so freaking good. Don't stop what you’re doing. You know, reach out. Let's stay connected. Lawyers, reach out to Delisi. She's a good person doing good work. who who actually likes us lawyers like most people lawyers.

I love lawyers.

She speaks lawyer talk. She understands us. And the advantage is she's not a lawyer. I love that because we learn more from non- lawyers than we do lawyers. And I will never uh not believe that to be true.

So Delisi, I appreciate you coming on today. Thank you so very much.

Thank you, Chris, for having me. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Delisi. That's it for this episode of The Earley Show. Be sure to check out more episodes of our show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and the Answering Legal YouTube channel.