The Vibe Check, the Intake Call, and the AI Problem with Jason Epstein

Welcome to episode 65 of The Earley Show, hosted by personal injury attorney Christopher Earley! For this conversation, Chris is joined by Jason Epstein, co-founder of Premier Law Group in Seattle.

Check out the episode below. You can also enjoy it on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Jason and Chris go back to the cold call that started their friendship: Chris found Jason's name on Ben Glass's website, called him out of the blue and decided to join the mastermind that changed his trajectory. From there, Jason explains why his nearly 20-year partnership with Patrick works precisely because they aren't friends, why he treats the first client meeting in jeans and a t-shirt as a vibe check, and an intake model where every new caller gets transferred straight to a lawyer. He also opens up about admitting the courtroom wasn't his seat, the TV and radio bet he wishes he had made early, why even people on the cutting edge feel behind on AI, and what teaching law firm entrepreneurship at Seattle U School of Law has taught him about the next generation.

About our guest:

Jason Epstein is a personal injury attorney and co-founder of Premier Law Group in Seattle, Washington, which he has built and grown with his partner Patrick for close to 20 years. A Seattle native, he earned a philosophy degree from the University of Southern California and his law degree from Pepperdine, then hung out his own shingle straight out of school before learning PI under an established Seattle trial lawyer. Jason runs the firm's pre-litigation and marketing side and personally takes as many intake calls as he can; roughly two-thirds of the firm's cases settle in pre-litigation. He is an adjunct professor at Seattle U School of Law, where he teaches law firm entrepreneurship, a longtime member of Ben Glass's mastermind groups, and recently soft-launched a one-on-one consulting practice for law firm owners.

Connect with Jason:

Visit Premier Law Group's website
Follow Jason on LinkedIn

Topics covered

• The cold call to Jason that led Chris to Ben Glass
• Growing up in an entrepreneurial, money-focused Seattle household
• How a philosophy degree turned into law school
• Hanging a shingle straight out of law school — and getting bailed out by a job offer on the WSTLA listserv
• Realizing he was unemployable and partnering with Patrick
• Finding Ben Glass in 2007–2008, when a yellow pages double truck cost $15,000 a month
• Why the value of a mastermind is in the room, not in the answers
• A 20-year partnership where the partners aren't friends — and why that's a strength
• Staying in your lane and sharing one vision
• Ditching the suit: the first client meeting as a vibe check
• Appealing to the right clients instead of every client
• An intake model where every caller is transferred to a lawyer
• Two-thirds of cases settled in pre-litigation
• Admitting the courtroom wasn't his seat — right people, right seats before he knew EOS
• Running "EOS light" with 12 to 14 employees
• The redo: not going big on TV and radio when it was affordable
• Keeping up with AI and feeling behind, even on the cutting edge
• Waiting for one vertically integrated platform from case inception to case finalization
• Why remote work didn't work for his office after COVID
• Teaching law firm entrepreneurship at Seattle U School of Law — and the .edu backlink that started it
• Why young people are pushed onto career paths too early
• Ben Glass lessons: the abundance mentality and the moving parade of interest
• Building your sphere of influence through referral relationships
• Traction, and Jason's new one-on-one consulting practice

People and resources mentioned

• Jason Epstein — Premier Law Group, Seattle
• Patrick — Jason's law partner at Premier Law Group
• Ben Glass — Great Legal Marketing; Jason's and Chris's longtime mastermind leader
• Dan Kennedy — marketing author and strategist
• Charlie Mann — Ben Glass community; guest speaker in Jason's Seattle U class
• John Fischer — mastermind host
• Michelle Delino — Seattle attorney and Seattle U Law alum
• Ryan McKeen — Best Era / AI Era
• Gerry Spence — Trial Lawyers College
• Mike Morse and John Nachazel — Mike Morse Law Firm
• Penn and Teller — Jason's favorite example of partners who aren't friends
• Washington State Trial Lawyers Association (WSTLA), now Washington State Association for Justice
• Seattle U School of Law; University of Washington
• University of Southern California (USC); Pepperdine Law School
• Best Era
• Traction by Gino Wickman / EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System)
• EvenUp, Eve, Supio — AI tools for PI firms
• Strata — AI context company
• Claude (Anthropic)
• practicetipoftheweek.com — Chris Earley's free weekly email list for lawyers

Learn more about Chris' practice, the Earley Law Group, here!

Check out Chris' book "Scaling The Wall" here!

The Earley Show is a part of the Answering Legal Podcast Network.

Interested in learning more about Answering Legal? Book an appointment to speak with us here!

You can also give us a call at 631-866-0801.

Episode Transcript:

Announcer (00:00)

The Earley Show is brought to you by our friends at Answering Legal. For more than a decade, attorneys have trusted Answering Legal's 24/7 virtual receptionist service to keep their phones covered and their clients cared for. Now, they're raising the bar with an AI powered intake chatbot, live translation services in over 180 languages, and 76 seamless tech integrations. Answering Legal's goal: make running a law practice simpler while helping you capture every new client opportunity. And don't worry, the receptionist team is still the best in the business at turning first-time callers into loyal clients. Find out what's possible by visiting answeringlegal.com. You'll find a link to the site in the description of this episode. Now, let's get to the show.

Chris Earley (00:52)

All right. Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of The Earley Show sponsored by our friends over at Answering Legal. I'm your host Chris Earley and as you know on this show we always bring you the very best and brightest in the legal industry. Today we have a treat. We have my friend Jason Epstein from Seattle. He's a PI lawyer, entrepreneur, uh very successful guy. He's always learning, always growing, and he's just he's a fun person to talk to. So I wanted to have him on the show. So as always, make sure you sharpen those pencils. I'm sure we'll have plenty of writer downers on this episode, The Earley Show. I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun today. Jason, welcome to the show, my friend.

Jason Epstein (01:26)

Thank you very much. Uh, it's a pleasure to be here, and those are very kind words that I don't know if I deserve.

Chris Earley (01:32)

You do. All right. You've heard the story, Jason. I got to share it. So, I'm going to go like seven, eight years ago. My wife and I, our kids are very young. We're living in a downtown Boston apartment. And I find uh I'm scrolling the internet. I find this Ben Glass website. Jason's name is on the website. He gives on the website Ben Glass and endorse him. Like I know who this guy Jason is in Seattle. I'm gonna call him. So I call Jason. I'm like, "Hey, what's up with this Ben Glass guy? What's up with this mastermind idea? Is it legit?" And you're like, "Well, all I can say is it's been very helpful for me." So I highly encourage you to try it, but it's really up to you, Chris. I thereafter decided to go for it. And that kind of changed my whole trajectory. So I do think things happen for a reason. So, I think me calling you ran, this random lawyer from Boston really helped me in a way I didn't expect. And now here we are many years later talking on this podcast. So, I'm grateful for you taking my call and grateful that we're friends. Um, it's just funny how life works sometimes. It's crazy.

Jason Epstein (02:30)

Yeah. Well, and thank you for um for paying back that uh that kindness with the Patriots blowout in Super Bowl. I appreciated everything you did for us there.

Chris Earley (02:39)

Happy to help. Happy to help, man. So before we talk about today and where you're at with your firm, could you kind of take us back? Where did you grow up? Influences coming up and eventually what got you to want to go to law school, you take us kind of from the beginning to kind of help us understand who where you are and where you are today.

Jason Epstein (02:55)

Like Barack Obama, I was born in Hawaii. My dad was uh uh uh doing his residency um in Hawaii when um when I was born. And so was born in Hawaii, but basically I was only there for like a year. Um raised in Seattle my whole life. So, I'm a I'm one of the rare Seattle natives. My dad was a doctor. Um, my mom um uh ran his his offices, but then also had a a side uh business where she had a couple of gift shops and jewelry shops. And my dad always was, you know, have had his own practice. And so, I grew up in a very entrepreneurial household making money. My parents were super super money focused. In fact, like that's one of the, you know, people talk about their childhood traumas. I didn't really have a lot except that there was a lot of talk about how to make money. Um

Chris Earley (03:43)

Okay. Okay.

Jason Epstein (03:45)

I went to uh to University of Southern California, USC, spent some time in LA after uh after graduating. Um I went to Pepperdine Law School, so spent a little more time in LA and then um moved back home. Um I didn't really have the sort of grades where you get a lot of job offers. And so, um, right out of school, I was like, you know, I better just kind of do this for myself. And so, I hung out my own shingle straight out of school.

Chris Earley (04:13)

Really? Okay.

Jason Epstein (04:14)

Um, yeah. Yeah. And it was just, I mean, it was just a nightmare. Total complete disaster. I was really fortunate that the people who I kind of lucked into an office share with. One of them was the incoming president of um, what was then Washington State Trial Lawyer Association, what is now Washington State Association for Justice. So, you know, he got me hooked into the to the WSTLA kind of ecosystem right away. So, I was, you know, in the trial lawyer group and um and, you know, trying to kind of eke out a living generating some PI cases with no resources and no reputation. Another member of that group kind of saw my questions and saw what I was doing and and you know, on the listserv was like, "Hey, I admire the hustle, but you have no clue what you're doing. Do you want a job?" So, um he bailed me out. Um you know after I think it was like three four or five months um I took a job with a you know well-established PI lawyer um and I was with him for um I don't know two three years and that's where I really learned you know how to do this and so I'm very grateful that I got that opportunity he you know I wasn't making very much money um but the education I got was certainly worth it um you know moved on to another job moved on to another job um and then um kind of by at that point I realized how completely unemployable I am because um I don't like to listen to stuff that I think is [ __ ] and you know when somebody's got an idea that's different than mine I don't think it's going to work I'm not good at being political about it. I was really fortunate at that time to to um meet my my now partner Patrick um and we joined up you know now it's been I don't know close to 20 years that we've been partner building and growing Premier Law Group um in that time. So I think that's kind of the the view from 10,000 feet about how I how I got started and kind of kind of what my my journey up to here was like I you know interestingly enough my undergraduate degree was in philosophy which is um very useful degree right after I graduated from college I I looked around to see kind of what the job market looked like and you know what I could do and what people would pay me for and um and I was like well [ __ ] I got to do something and so it was either law school or med school and with the philosophy degree it much easier to get into law school than med school. So, so here I am, you know, all these years later. So, it's not like the law was something I really had a passion for or loved. It was just kind of like, you know, I knew I needed to do something and that seemed like a not bad idea at the time.

Chris Earley (06:43)

So, that's really interesting. So, you started you hung a shingle out of law school, right? And then that was an abject disaster, you said. And so, you're kind of like a boomerang like uh entrepreneur. So, you start on your own lone ranger, right? and you realize this is this is kind of crazy and then you became by your experience you became unemployable because you realize that this isn't my gig working for someone else right and that's the common theme of this show is like entrepreneurs we we land where we're supposed to land is entrepreneurship and then you you find your current partner of 20 years right and so I think that's really interesting because a lot of people they they almost do like the opposite they work for a firm for a while then they start their own practice you you have a very interesting story um of that. So So 20 years with your partner, have you guys only done PI that whole time?

Jason Epstein (07:34)

Yeah, I mean he does a teeny bit of plaintiff-side employment law, but uh yeah, we we you know, 99% PI.

Chris Earley (07:42)

Your curiosity led you, you know, obviously to Ben Glass where I met you. How did you get going on that whole thing? What led you to that whole arena?

Jason Epstein (07:51)

Yeah, I mean, so I think we go back to like 2007, 2008, somewhere in there. Um you know it's me and and um Patrick and um you know small office we've got a few cases and I'm like hey how do I how do I grow you know how do I grow this and at that point you know the move was yellow pages right like that is how is how old it is and um and so it was like well [ __ ] the double truck you know in the in the yellow pages it's you know 15,000 a month and like we don't have that kind of money you know we're barely getting by and so it's like well okay we got to do something but this isn't And you know, I wouldn't say the internet was new, but you know, like kind of devoting energy to like uh marketing on the internet was newer. And so it was just like, you know, me trying to figure stuff out and and you know, kind of like you, I found Ben.

Chris Earley (08:40)

Totally.

Jason Epstein (08:41)

You know, at that point, Ben was one of the very few voices in the wilderness, you know, talking to lawyers. Now, now they're everywhere.

Chris Earley (08:47)

I know.

Jason Epstein (08:47)

So, I got into his group and um and you know knew right away after I I spent a little bit of time um kind of absorbing some of his materials like okay I'm all in on on what he's doing. And so I tried to like you know get up in his group as high the highest level I could get into and spend as much time you know with him and kind of implementing as many of the things uh as I could that he was teaching. And so, you know, that's what kind of kicked off that journey and and you know, I'm still with Ben, still in the group and um and so, you know, I I value um everything I've I've learned and got from Ben over the years and can't imagine not going to those meetings a couple times a year in Virginia because um every time I go, even though, you know, honestly, I I dread getting on a plane and going, you know, travel across the country for a couple days, but every time on the way back, I'm really glad I went.

Chris Earley (09:37)

Totally. You know, it's a small world. I was with Charlie Mann in New York City last week at a mastermind, uh, John Fischer's mastermind, and I was having dinner with a bunch of guys and Charlie was right there with me. I said, you know, when I found Ben, it was like I just connected like to that stuff. I don't know how or why or when, but I just like hooked on to that whole thing. And when you find someone like that, it's such an advantage. It's almost like an unfair advantage because I don't know about Seattle most you know in Boston we kind of like stick around Boston a lot a lot of us not a lot of us get away from Boston but when you get away from Seattle Boston you're immersed in these ideas when I found Ben I've talked about this thousands of times in this podcast I found Ben it was like [ __ ] game changer you know super inspiring guy I just jived with everything you know he was saying and he's still he's still helpful to me you know

Jason Epstein (10:29)

It's been like what 15 16 you know close to 20 years that I've been with Ben and um you would think that like okay there's only so many times you can hear the same thing or that it's you know like you don't need it anymore or like I know everything and it's not that's not the case and it's not um you know as you know a lot of the value doesn't come from like Ben answering a question it's the questions that come up in the room and how everybody is responding to the question and so you know I I think what Ben has done a great job of is you know staying curious um always learning and then putting groups together where um where there are people around that you can level up off of and and you know the longer I've been in it and the more I I've transitioned from like okay I'm the person that you know doesn't know anything is asking all the questions right to like okay now I'm the person who's answering more of the questions in the room or having problems I've already dealt with I find that going through that process it's still actually really helpful because it's reminding me of stuff I need to do again that I've you know dropped off or that I'm not focused on or you know that hit you different at different times.

Chris Earley (11:38)

100% 100%. So I really think it's interesting that you're in a partnership for 20 years. So honestly when I hear the when I hear the word partnership I think marriage like it's really a marriage a 20-year marriage. That's super impressive. I've never done that. I've only you know just then a solo then grew. Can you tell me about what it's like to have a partner and does he subscribe to all the Ben Glass stuff? Is he down with all that? Like are you guys always align? How's it been that whole two decades, you know, because obviously you're doing something right, both of you, to to to connect initially because it's gone this long. What's what and what's working well?

Jason Epstein (12:15)

Well, so it's it's funny. I I just recently posted about this on LinkedIn and it was one of my most um viewed posts like, you know, a couple hundred thousand impressions, which for me was a lot. Um

Chris Earley (12:25)

That's a lot.

Jason Epstein (12:26)

But we're not friends. So, and and I think, you know, I gota I'm gonna qualify that a little bit. So, like not like we don't like each other and I do, you know, I do I do like him, but like we don't hang out. We don't talk to each other very often about non-business stuff, you know, like we're aware of what's going on each other's lives and stuff because that's important, you know, and I I love him and support him, but you know, I think people have this idea that like you need to be friends and that's like the genesis of the of the partnership. And we, you know, early on we did try to be friends and, you know, like we go golfing together and stuff like that and like, you know, it's just, you know, kids and marriages and all that stuff and, you know, and so that stuff just kind of fell by the wayside and I think that makes a better partnership honestly. Um it it reminds me a lot of um I don't know if you know this but it's kind of one of my favorite stories when I talk about this Penn and Teller you know like some of the most successful magicians with the longest career you can think of and they are not friends they don't engage with each each other outside of work.

Chris Earley (13:29)

Mm.

Jason Epstein (13:29)

There's a similar dynamic that um you know what has allowed us to be successful as partners is um we each really stay in our lane as far as you know like these are the things that you're handling these are the things that I'm handling um we come together of course about you know certain things so like he is not

Chris Earley (13:46)

A Ben Glass follower, got it.

Jason Epstein (13:49)

He does not subscribe he does he doesn't stay on you know on the cutting edge of you like marketing or practice management or you know mindset or like he doesn't do any of that stuff um And that, you know, and that and I do it and that's good because I think if we had to, you know, if we had to debate and argue the stuff that like I want to do all the time, I think that'd be problem. And then he really runs um, you know, the the thing he's really great at. And we found this out early in our partnership together when we were trying to figure out how to divide labor is he's just a really good lawyer. Like I don't I don't think I'm a great lawyer. He's a really good lawyer. And so like if you're going to litigate an issue, he's going to beat you. And so he runs the, you know, kind of the the legal operations of that side of the firm.

Chris Earley (14:32)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (14:33)

Um really well.

Chris Earley (14:35)

Okay. Okay. That's awesome because you don't want two Jasons running around, right? You want one Jason, your partner. I was writing notes listening to you. So I think of I think of um John Nachazel um and Mike Morse. Like they're not particularly like close friends. And I always think I always thought I was curious like oh I thought they would be but like hearing what you just said it's like a a level of professionalism you know we don't need to like you know hang all the time right like outside of work it it's made cleaner that way like you know we we record we get along it's just level of professionalism and that allows you to do your thing allows him to do his thing and there's great complimentary um you know power power to that. Why has it worked so well? Why for 20 years? Like what do you think is the thing is successful? Because a lot of partnerships don't make it 20 years I would assume. Like why are you guys different? Why is it lasted this long? What's what do you think it is?

Jason Epstein (15:31)

Yeah. Well, I so you know like this whole thing about when you're coming up with like your mission, vision, values, all that kind of stuff. Um so I think that our our vision is completely aligned and in a very fundamental way that's different than you think about when coming up with a law firm vision. And that vision is let's make as much money as we possibly can. Um and so

Chris Earley (15:51)

Mom and Dad proud.

Jason Epstein (15:54)

Yeah. You know, if I I think if I came to him and I was like, you know, hey, look, I've got this idea and here's the pathway that we're going to make a lot of money and it's like selling a widget, you know, like we're not even going to be lawyers. He'd be like, okay, let's do it. You know, and so that's really, you know, this this alignment of vision and and, you know, purpose. You know, we kind of go our separate ways and then come back together on how to get there, but that vision is is very unified.

Chris Earley (16:19)

I like that. So, we're here to make some dough, you know, help people out and and have good lives, right? I mean, that's that's wonderful.

Jason Epstein (16:25)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, like I I don't it's it's cool that we get to do something where, you know, we really um can help people and make a difference in their lives in a meaningful way. And um and you know, without without people like us, you know, what would what would insurance companies, what these large corporations do to the, you know, to the average person? And so, you know, I do feel like that we do have a noble purpose. You know, like the job has a noble purpose, but you know, ultimately what I want to do is recognize that there's only, you know, you only got what 50, 60, 70 years on the planet. And so, you know, I'd like to spend as little time working as possible. And so, um, you know, that that's where that alignment is really what has allowed us to to kind of flourish together.

Chris Earley (17:10)

I'm so happy. That's awesome. Let me ask you this. So, you know, when I first, you know, when I had that conversation with you, um, many years ago, I would wear a suit every day. Like, you never saw Chris Earley without a suit. And I heard you talk either somewhere or I read somewhere you said like you just don't wear suits. You show up to a client meeting and you know, a t-shirt. And if clients are fine with that, good. If not, that's good, too. And I was kind of like, are you serious? But now I'm like, you won't catch me dead in a suit today. It's like doesn't happen. I like that. Could you talk about that because I think a lot of lawyers need to hear that. Like you just you're you're you feel uh liberated because you don't have to like appease everyone. You're just like doing your thing. What's that all about? I'd love to hear about that.

Jason Epstein (17:49)

Yeah, we So, it's funny. I just talked about this with um so my guest speaker in my law firm entrepreneurship class this last week was Michelle Delino.

Chris Earley (17:57)

She's in Seattle as well.

Jason Epstein (17:59)

She's in Seattle. Yeah. So, she came she came in person which was great. Like she was standing there with my class. And so yeah, this topic came up um and and you know the way I described it to them which is kind of a different way than I think I've ever described it is because I'm speaking to a group of like you know Gen Zers, right? Is that how you show up in that initial meeting and how you show up to people is like a vibe check. And so if they're not digging your vibe and you're not digging their vibe, that's okay. Like I would rather know that now because I'm not going to I'm not going to change who I am for anybody. And so when I show up to the meeting as you heard me, you know, probably 15 years ago, show up in jeans and the t-shirt and if the person's like, "Oh, you don't look like a lawyer's supposed to look." Then I know that at some point our relationship's going to fail anyway because I'm going to say something stupid that they wouldn't expect a lawyer.

Chris Earley (18:48)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (18:49)

So I'd rather just know that now and get it out of the way.

Chris Earley (18:52)

I like it.

Jason Epstein (18:53)

One of the things um that I do uh it's been honestly been less this second term than it was the first term because I I don't know I was more agitated during the first term. But I would in in new client meetings I would I would frequently trash Trump like just in the meeting.

Chris Earley (19:08)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (19:09)

And if if that was a problem for someone that would indicate that hey this probably isn't going to work out in the long term between us,

Chris Earley (19:16)

Right.

Jason Epstein (19:16)

Um, and so, you know, I I just kind of put stuff like that out there and it's okay because not every client is the right client for me and I'm not the right lawyer for everybody and there's, you know, lots of other choices out there for both of us. So, you know, let let's make sure that it's the good fit from the outset.

Chris Earley (19:30)

I love that. I like that a lot. You know, talk about avatars because like you don't want to appeal to everybody. I talk about that constantly, Jason, on this podcast. When you can just appeal genuinely to a minority of people, what's going to happen? They're going to be the best clients and they're going to refer everyone to you that they know because they love you because they're down with you. Because they relate. They have affinity towards you. That's a Ben Glass, Dan Kennedy thing. Affinity. But I'd love that because that's a genuine way to operate a business to serve those who actually are down with you and vibing with you, right? I love it. I think like putting people through a test like, "Oh, they passed that test. All right, I'm down with you. You're down with me. Let's go. Let's go to battle." Right? And that's awesome. Like, we're here. We're here to help you. One thing I want to mention is I look at your website. You guys had some on social media. You guys had some nice results, right? Some really nice, you know, really good results. Are you involved in the trials or are you just really focused on getting the cases in the door while Patrick heads the legal side.

Jason Epstein (20:23)

So, I run the pre-litigation side and kind of like, you know, the marketing side. So, I I all the clients start with me and um and you know, I don't I don't know um how much you know about our process at all, but basically every intake call, and this is going to blow your mind,

Chris Earley (20:39)

Okay.

Jason Epstein (20:39)

I try to be the first person available to talk to them. So about if we So the way we run our intake team is people call in my intake department just gets the basic information name, address, phone number, email and then transfer them to Jason. And so I try to talk to every person that called. Now obviously if I'm on the phone then we have, you know, a phone tree of kind of, you know, the other lawyers, but everybody who calls in is going to get to talk to a lawyer right away. And I try to have that be me as much as possible. So I manage that relationship, you know, most of the time. I think our firm average last time I looked at the numbers was about two-thirds of our cases settle in pre-litigation, right? So for two-thirds of our clients, it's it's just me from start to finish. Um on the one-third where they don't get um uh where we're not able to settle it in pre-litigation, um then it goes to my litigation team and they handle it. So you know what happened? And this again, Chris, it's kind of funny because I also talked with my class about this last week with Michelle. I thought when early in my career that I was supposed to be a really good trial lawyer because, you know, like that's what you think you're supposed to do and you're supposed to try cases. You're supposed to be good at it. You're supposed to be witty and you're supposed to, you know, have the ability to, you know, have all, you know, to be appealing to the jury and have all the charisma. And I went to trial college, you know, did the full thing with Gerry Spence and, you know, learned with all those guys, um, and came back and tried a few cases and did not get great results.

Chris Earley (22:05)

Okay.

Jason Epstein (22:05)

And at the same time, um, Patrick was getting really good results. And so I, you know, I had to come to the realization that like this is not the right place for me to be in the business.

Chris Earley (22:18)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (22:18)

Um, and admitting that to yourself that you're not going to be what the world thinks you're supposed to be is like a huge relief.

Chris Earley (22:27)

100%.

Jason Epstein (22:28)

Um,

Chris Earley (22:29)

Healthy.

Jason Epstein (22:29)

And so, you know, it's it's part of and it's kind of, you know, we didn't know EOS at that time, but it's very EOS, you know, right people, right? So, we kind of, you know, instinctively did that and put the right people in the right seats and and the right seat for me was not in the courtroom and I'm quite happy to not be there.

Chris Earley (22:45)

I love that. Tell me, are you running EOS now?

Jason Epstein (22:49)

Yeah.

Chris Earley (22:50)

How's what's the size of the firm?

Jason Epstein (22:51)

Uh, I think we're like between 12 and 14 total employees for attorneys. We run a very modified version of EOS. I would call it like EOS light, but it, you know, it works for us. It's the parts that we need and and not the parts we don't need.

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Chris Earley (23:05)

Hey everyone, it's Chris. If you ever have a personal injury case here in Massachusetts that you can't take on or just want to refer out to a trusted firm, my team and I would love to work with you. Since 2004, I've only practiced personal injury law. My team and I pride ourselves on handling referrals with transparency, good communication, and care for your client. And if you're not already getting it, head on over to practicetipoftheweek.com. practicetipoftheweek.com to join my free email list. It goes out to hundreds and hundreds of lawyers each and every week with actionable marketing and practicing tips. Thanks for listening. Look forward to collaborating with you.

Chris Earley (23:47)

I got a two-parter for you. If we could go back because again, you know, a lot of lawyers listening, they're at our stage of the journey or they're just getting started. Two, my two-parter. The first part is what's one thing you wish you could have a redo that you kind of like messed up looking back. So, I I got a million of those and current and the second part, what's your biggest challenge today?

Jason Epstein (24:06)

You know, the redo, I think I would say there were different times where, you know, you're deciding whether to do something. And the things that I would say like we that I regret that we didn't do are like large marketing ventures

Chris Earley (24:22)

Like what or something.

Jason Epstein (24:24)

Well, so like you know there are times when we talked about like radio or TV or stuff like that and we don't do any of that stuff. We um for a minute we dipped our toe in radio like 10 years ago and didn't spend enough to you know have it do anything meaningful. Um I think if I could go back in time I would go in big when it was more affordable than it is now even though I didn't have the money to do it then.

Chris Earley (24:48)

Same.

Jason Epstein (24:49)

Because now it's like I you know I look at TV and to to even you know grab like a a little bit of a teeny finger hold would cost me like you know two, $3 million a year and I have no inclination to spend that. So, I'm not going to do it now, but I could have done it much cheaper earlier.

Chris Earley (25:04)

I'm with you, man. I'm with you on that.

Jason Epstein (25:06)

Biggest challenge now, I mean, I think honestly what the thing I'm struggling with most right now, like on a day-to-day basis, is trying to to stay on top of what's changing with the things that AI can and can't do for us.

Chris Earley (25:21)

Okay.

Jason Epstein (25:21)

And trying to implement systems that are going to have long-term value instead of just grabbing at you know like oh that looks kind of cool and it's so [ __ ] complicated. And it's changing so fast and there's still like you know every five minutes there's a new release of Claude and you know like I feel like it's funny I feel like I'm really behind in that

Chris Earley (25:46)

Okay.

Jason Epstein (25:46)

Like that I'm constantly behind and I talked to one of my friends who I had um again speak to the class she's a lawyer but she happens to now be a tech entrepreneur and she's launched this like AI um it's called her company is called Strata it's really cool it's um an AI context generation company that is like prov providing the you know the the context which is huge in the AI world for agents. So it's it's like it's not even really built for human beings. It's built for like the AI agents that are requesting context and it provides this context.

Chris Earley (26:20)

Wow.

Jason Epstein (26:20)

And so she came to speak to my class too and she was like you know look here's this and so she's doing this at like a high level in and in the world and she's like everybody feels like they're behind all the time.

Chris Earley (26:30)

I think that's wonderful. Totally.

Jason Epstein (26:32)

Yeah. And so, you know, that was like reassuring to hear from someone that's like living in the world, like how how is how am I supposed to keep up with this? And not only, you know, am I running this other business and doing all this stuff, but then on top of it, I'm 52 years old and like this [ __ ] is weird to me.

Chris Earley (26:47)

Yeah, I know. Totally.

Jason Epstein (26:48)

And so, you know, there there's that other layer where now like I'm becoming like my parents were, you know, where it's like I have to explain to them how to use cell phone and now, you know, I'm like, well, wait, how how does the AI do something in the real world? Like I don't get it. So I think that's the biggest challenge and and I you know my my feeling here's so here's musings of an old man. My feeling is that the winner is going to be whoever gives you a complete vertical integration from case inception to case finalization.

Chris Earley (27:22)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (27:23)

And you don't have to do all these plugins and [ __ ] we're doing now. And and I'm and nobody's doing it yet and I'm waiting like I'm waiting for somebody to be like okay we've got the product and here it is but instead you've got like you know EvenUp and Eve and Supio and then you know you have to plug that into your case management and you have to and then you have to have you know your your intake management on top of that and I just want someone to come up with the one thing.

Chris Earley (27:45)

Yeah, man. Look, man, I like the vulnerability, the realness. Like, I relate. I'm 49 and sometimes it's like I love I really never heard anyone say it like that, like, you know, feeling behind and like constantly no matter and you and I are on top of this stuff, man. We go to conferences and like we're on the cutting edge and we still feel behind. That's very telling, right? That's that's significant. So, I I'm with you. But rest assured, I'm I I'm sure that product is coming out. That one one one thing and everything in one thing on a model. I mean, they say that case management software is going away. Like it's all going to be integrated. It's all going to be one cohesive thing. So, I think I think we'll see that. But it's super fun time to be an entrepreneur, Jason. Right. We have so many options. Have you put your Have you gone offshore at all or just strictly an office hybrid? What does it look like?

Jason Epstein (28:36)

We had a really atypical response to COVID.

Chris Earley (28:40)

Okay.

Jason Epstein (28:40)

And it's not it's not common in, you know, the other people I talked to, which is that, you know, we we all had to go remote for a minute, right? Like that was a thing we and and when we did that, um it did not work for my office.

Chris Earley (28:53)

Okay.

Jason Epstein (28:54)

You know, we went as soon as we were able, we were back, you know, in office 100% of the time. And so I like my personal philosophy and I and I'm sure this has more to do with you know me and Patrick at the top than it does have to do with the people that are doing the work um at the bottom or in the middle but work from home and remote does not work for us. The way we operate is you know when I've got a problem like I I'm you know instead of like even hitting my intercom I typically just yell out my door and you know somebody will come in. So yeah I don't have any um any remote any any virtuals. I've got I like, you know, people that I can are like right here and I can talk to and be like, you know, what are you doing? So, you know, and I think that that in some ways, of course, it's limiting, you know, because we're not, you know, we're if we've put a job posting out, we're not going to attract a certain level of talent that wants to work from home, but it's what works for us.

Chris Earley (29:44)

Well, that's all that matters, man. That's all that matters, right? That's the theme of our talk today is just like doing it the way you want to do it and having no not having to answer to anyone and attracting people who are down with that. Clients, team members, and when that works, there's a synergy. I think that's really cool. I think it's really cool that you're a professor. You graciously, generously had me on as a virtual guest. I really liked it. It was like a small room of students. Um, it was just cool to like just makes me feel like, oh my god, I'm so old. Uh, I talked to some young law students, but super cool. I'm interested to see how you got the gig and what it's been like for you to be a, you know, professor at law school.

Jason Epstein (30:20)

It started completely selfishly, of course. So, um, I'm, you know, I'm thinking like, how do I get some good backlinks, right? And like, how do I get that

Chris Earley (30:31)

Totally.

Jason Epstein (30:31)

.edu backlink

Chris Earley (30:33)

100%.

Jason Epstein (30:34)

And so, um, you know, we're both part of Best Era. Um, and I I was listening to

Chris Earley (30:40)

Love Best.

Jason Epstein (30:40)

Yeah. Listening to Ryan McKeen talk about, you know, teaching at the at, you know, UConn and I'm like, that'd be fun. Like, I could do I could do an entrepreneurship class. That'd be interesting. I reached out to Seattle U School of Law, which is, you know, one of the the two local law schools here in Seattle. There's University of Washington, Seattle U. They were like, "Yeah, we'd love to have you as an adjunct. Um that that class sounds like it'd be fun. Um why don't you um um for the first term come and teach uh pre-trial advocacy and then second term you can do this?" And so I went in um in the fall and taught pre-trial advocacy, which was cool because it was like a there was already a curriculum. I didn't have to like, you know, come up with any of that stuff. And um I had a teaching partner which was good, another uh another lawyer. And so, you know, got my feet wet doing that. And then this term I've been teaching the the entrepreneurship class, which is, you know, the class I wanted to teach. Uh I've got 16 students. It's been great. They're um they're really super smart. They're asking, you know, great questions. My format is um every week I have a guest lecturer come in for the first hour. Um, and you know, run the gamut from, you know, Ben Glass, Chris Earley, uh, Michelle Delino. Um, I've had, um, you know, people that aren't lawyers, but lawyer-adjacent, like Charlie. I had Charlie come and talk.

Chris Earley (31:56)

Love it. He's awesome.

Jason Epstein (31:57)

What I've got out of it is that, um, I actually really enjoy it. I found that I really enjoy spending time with these law students and and you know kind of maybe being a voice that is different than the stuff that they're used to hearing. Giving them permission to not think that they've got to go, you know, work in big law and kind of grinding the machine.

Chris Earley (32:15)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (32:16)

Is definitely something I'm going to keep doing. It's also been cool because it maybe gives me a window to like what it's going to look like in the next 20 years in my career. Like how, you know, when I stopped working in the firm so much, there's other stuff out there that I could do that would be interesting.

Chris Earley (32:31)

I feel like you're like the anti-professor. You don't wear like a tweed jacket with like a pipe. You're just like coming in there, you know, tats and a short sleeve shirt. Here, this is who I am. Like it or not, you're dropping f-bombs. It's like, hell yeah. And that's cool.

Jason Epstein (32:42)

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's totally true and and it it you know, it's um it's a lot of fun. And it's if they're, you know, Yeah. They're I am I'm sure that I'm very unlike anybody else that they're going to have as professor and part of it is so Michelle actually went to SU law school. So she came back to speak at the school she went to and you know part of like one of the things she was saying is which you know I' I've told them um in less direct terms. She's like law school is a waste like there's nothing about law school that teaches you anything about being a lawyer.

Chris Earley (33:15)

I know.

Jason Epstein (33:16)

Um, and so, you know, it's just telling them things that they don't hear, you know, or and they they don't figure out for the first five to 10 years of practice. Um, you know, I think it's going to it's going to give them a leg up.

Chris Earley (33:29)

I I agree with that. I think it's really cool. You just cold called them, right? Said, "Hey, you know, I think it's awesome. Like, I think we need to cold call more opportunities, you know, and ask for things." And then what happens? You get a bunch of yeses. I'm a rabid believer in that. What has it taught you? I know you're like learning about, you know, you're immersed in young people, which is, you know, it's refreshing, but like has this taught you anything about yourself, like anything like because you're kind of wearing a different hat you've not worn before. And so, like, what has this kind of taught you?

Jason Epstein (34:00)

That's an interesting question. Um, I think I'll tell you one thing that it's taught me, and I I don't know if this is, you know, like the thing, but but one thing is that I feel like the pace of the world has sped up in a really unfortunate way for for the younger generation. And and I'm seeing this also with my kids. So, my kids are 21 and 17. So, I've got, you know, what should be roughly a senior in college and then I've got um, you know, a junior in high school.

Chris Earley (34:27)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (34:27)

Them having to have their [ __ ] together earlier is is just accelerated to a point that's like really super unfair. So, specifically, you know, kind of relating that to law school, like you know, they're like the amount of dialed in that they are and that they have to be to like kind of have a a chance at, you know, doing things that, you know, when they graduate is so foreign to me because I didn't have my [ __ ] together at all.

Chris Earley (34:54)

I still don't.

Jason Epstein (34:55)

Um Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, and you're going to see this because your kids are a little younger, right? But you're going to see this like, so my, you know, my youngest is applying to college. He's a junior in high school. I think he's going to start applying to college soon.

Chris Earley (35:08)

Awesome.

Jason Epstein (35:08)

And like, um, you have to like apply to your major for a lot of majors now. And and he, you know, I'm like, what do you want to do? And he's like, I don't know. And I'm like, yeah, how could you know? Like how you know.

Chris Earley (35:22)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (35:22)

How could you have any idea if you want to be an electrical engineer or, you know, a veterinarian at 17 years old?

Chris Earley (35:27)

Wow. Yeah.

Jason Epstein (35:28)

Um but they but it's like we're we're kind of forcing them into these paths earlier and earlier and earlier and I feel like it's kind of super unfair and I you know, who knows what it's going to look like if if there's going to be a you know, in 30 years if there's going to be a group of way more competent professionals out in the world that they have been kind of on a path for a long time, but then maybe they'll be more unhappy, you know, like I I don't know. I don't know what it's going to look like. I just think it's unfair.

Chris Earley (35:51)

I I'm with you. That's an interesting way um to look at it. You almost kind of feel feel sorry because it's such a hard burden at a very young age. Can we go back to Ben Glass real quick? Is there one lesson because I'm just a big believer in that stuff and everything he did for my career led me to so many levels. Is there one thing that you've taken away because you've invested a lot of dough, a lot of time, a lot of air, a lot of flights to go see him. Is there like one thing that sticks out that really is the biggest needle for you or lesson that you've learned from him?

Jason Epstein (36:25)

I mean, I think that I So, here's probably the answer to that question I think is the most fitting for Ben is, you know, I think the abundance mentality would be probably the best way to answer that that there's, you know, there's plenty of money out there, there's plenty of work out there, there's plenty of stuff out there and um and so, you know, giving your stuff to even your competitor is good. Um you know putting positivity out into the world and and you know you and I have seen that you know in in the time we spent with Ben where you know people will um come into his company be part of his ecosystem then would leave the company and Ben is no less generous with those people than he was when they were working for him than he is when they're his competitors you know I think that's kind of probably a very fitting uh legacy to give to Ben is you know kind of like the being being really an advocate for this abundance mentality. I think one of the things that hits me every time I come back from one of the meetings or something though is this thing that he talked about, you know, he's never not talked about it. I think he calls it the moving parade of interest. It's how like different things hit different people at different times in different ways. And so I found that that's really true for me is that you know like I'll be dealing with something I'll be like yeah I I heard about this thing 10 years ago and and now and but now it's important to me you know and so the way that like kind of just accumulating all of this this information is actually really helpful because there are going to be times when you know it is going to be useful to you in some way and part and you know another kind of example of that is these relationships that are built right like you know so you and I are doing, you know, these things and meeting each other and and you know, going to these different meetings and then, you know, who knows when that time is going to be where I'm going to need something that, you know, you're good at or even recently, you know, like I had

Chris Earley (38:15)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (38:15)

Like what's that?

Chris Earley (38:16)

Vice versa. Two ways. Two ways.

Jason Epstein (38:19)

Yeah. Well, and I had I mean, you know, here's here's the proof of that is I had this guy who, you know, was in an accident in Seattle and then moved to Boston, right? And then had two accidents in Boston and so there's all this overlap. And so I called Chris. I'm like, "Hey, can you help with this case?"

Chris Earley (38:32)

Yeah. Across the country.

Jason Epstein (38:33)

Um yeah. So, I mean, like, what are the odds that a guy is going to be in an accident in Seattle and then two accidents in Boston, but you know, so um you never know who you're going to need and when. So, just kind of having your sphere of influence um be as big as possible, I think, is really valuable.

Chris Earley (38:49)

I love that. I love that a lot. As we wrap up, I want to ask you, is there one book that has had the biggest impact on you uh professionally, personally, both? Is there just one thing, one one book you've read that really kind of hit you the most?

Jason Epstein (39:02)

I'm gonna be uh honest with you. I don't really like to read anymore.

Chris Earley (39:06)

That's fair.

Jason Epstein (39:08)

Um I listen I listen to audio books and I listen to fiction. Like I don't even listen to like audiobooks that are going to enrich my business life. Um so I go to these different things and I'm like I get a list of like 10 books I should read and that everybody's raving about and then I I Amazon them and then they just sit on my shelf. Um, but I would say the last one that I like looked at and actually did spend some time with that, you know, was meaningful and that I've gone back to at different stages is Traction.

Chris Earley (39:36)

Yeah.

Jason Epstein (39:36)

And um, you know, one thing that I'm doing that we didn't talk about at all is I'm doing like one-on-one consulting. So, it's like I've I've launched, you know, soft launch a consulting business where when people find me or I find them and I'm like, you know, hey, I'll talk to you my my the pitch is I'll talk to you twice a week on Zoom. On, you know, two one-hour sessions a week, you know, every other week and it's not there's not a program, there's not an agenda. Just like, hey, what are you dealing with right now? Let's figure out how to solve those issues. Um, so, um, and I'm not charging very much and I'm just and so I've got I'm up to four clients now that I'm doing that for with those clients. I've actually go I go back to Traction a lot and I'm like, you know, hey, here's here's kind of the way you need to approach this and had them read it. So I think Traction is is a really a really good book.

Chris Earley (40:23)

100% 100% agree with you. That's it for this episode of The Earley Show. Be sure to check out more episodes of our show on Spotify, Apple Podcast, and the Answering Legal YouTube channel.